Prove that the dyadic rationals $D$ are dense in $mathbb{Q}$
$begingroup$
Prove that the dyadic rationals $D$ are dense in $mathbb{R}$.
I saw some proofs using showing that $D$ is dense on $[0,1]$.
I proved that if $A$ is dense in $B$ and $B$ is dense in $C$, then $A$ is dense in $C$. So, I want use it. My idea is show that $D$ is dense in $mathbb{Q}$. Can someone help me? Just a hint, not a solution.
Attempt. Let $D = left{frac{m}{2^{n}}mid n in mathbb{N}text{ and }m in mathbb{Z}right}$. Take $I = left(k-frac{epsilon}{2},k+frac{epsilon}{2}right)$ an open interval in $mathbb{Q}$. We can find a $n in mathbb{N}$ such that $epsilon > frac{1}{2^{n}}$. If there is no $frac{m}{2^{n}} in I$, there is $frac{m}{2^n}$ and $frac{m+1}{2^{n}}$ such that $frac{m}{2^{n}} < k - frac{epsilon}{2}$ and $k + frac{epsilon}{2} < frac{m+1}{2^{n}}$. Thus
$$frac{1}{2^{n}} =frac{m+1}{2^{n}} - frac{m}{2^n} > epsilon,$$
a contradiction.
real-analysis metric-spaces
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Prove that the dyadic rationals $D$ are dense in $mathbb{R}$.
I saw some proofs using showing that $D$ is dense on $[0,1]$.
I proved that if $A$ is dense in $B$ and $B$ is dense in $C$, then $A$ is dense in $C$. So, I want use it. My idea is show that $D$ is dense in $mathbb{Q}$. Can someone help me? Just a hint, not a solution.
Attempt. Let $D = left{frac{m}{2^{n}}mid n in mathbb{N}text{ and }m in mathbb{Z}right}$. Take $I = left(k-frac{epsilon}{2},k+frac{epsilon}{2}right)$ an open interval in $mathbb{Q}$. We can find a $n in mathbb{N}$ such that $epsilon > frac{1}{2^{n}}$. If there is no $frac{m}{2^{n}} in I$, there is $frac{m}{2^n}$ and $frac{m+1}{2^{n}}$ such that $frac{m}{2^{n}} < k - frac{epsilon}{2}$ and $k + frac{epsilon}{2} < frac{m+1}{2^{n}}$. Thus
$$frac{1}{2^{n}} =frac{m+1}{2^{n}} - frac{m}{2^n} > epsilon,$$
a contradiction.
real-analysis metric-spaces
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Prove that the dyadic rationals $D$ are dense in $mathbb{R}$.
I saw some proofs using showing that $D$ is dense on $[0,1]$.
I proved that if $A$ is dense in $B$ and $B$ is dense in $C$, then $A$ is dense in $C$. So, I want use it. My idea is show that $D$ is dense in $mathbb{Q}$. Can someone help me? Just a hint, not a solution.
Attempt. Let $D = left{frac{m}{2^{n}}mid n in mathbb{N}text{ and }m in mathbb{Z}right}$. Take $I = left(k-frac{epsilon}{2},k+frac{epsilon}{2}right)$ an open interval in $mathbb{Q}$. We can find a $n in mathbb{N}$ such that $epsilon > frac{1}{2^{n}}$. If there is no $frac{m}{2^{n}} in I$, there is $frac{m}{2^n}$ and $frac{m+1}{2^{n}}$ such that $frac{m}{2^{n}} < k - frac{epsilon}{2}$ and $k + frac{epsilon}{2} < frac{m+1}{2^{n}}$. Thus
$$frac{1}{2^{n}} =frac{m+1}{2^{n}} - frac{m}{2^n} > epsilon,$$
a contradiction.
real-analysis metric-spaces
$endgroup$
Prove that the dyadic rationals $D$ are dense in $mathbb{R}$.
I saw some proofs using showing that $D$ is dense on $[0,1]$.
I proved that if $A$ is dense in $B$ and $B$ is dense in $C$, then $A$ is dense in $C$. So, I want use it. My idea is show that $D$ is dense in $mathbb{Q}$. Can someone help me? Just a hint, not a solution.
Attempt. Let $D = left{frac{m}{2^{n}}mid n in mathbb{N}text{ and }m in mathbb{Z}right}$. Take $I = left(k-frac{epsilon}{2},k+frac{epsilon}{2}right)$ an open interval in $mathbb{Q}$. We can find a $n in mathbb{N}$ such that $epsilon > frac{1}{2^{n}}$. If there is no $frac{m}{2^{n}} in I$, there is $frac{m}{2^n}$ and $frac{m+1}{2^{n}}$ such that $frac{m}{2^{n}} < k - frac{epsilon}{2}$ and $k + frac{epsilon}{2} < frac{m+1}{2^{n}}$. Thus
$$frac{1}{2^{n}} =frac{m+1}{2^{n}} - frac{m}{2^n} > epsilon,$$
a contradiction.
real-analysis metric-spaces
real-analysis metric-spaces
edited Dec 29 '18 at 19:56
Lucas Corrêa
asked Dec 29 '18 at 19:24
Lucas CorrêaLucas Corrêa
1,5601321
1,5601321
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Instead of reducing the statement to the density of $mathbb{Q}$, just use the same proof idea.
Remainder: $mathbb{Q}$ is dense, because given an interval of length $varepsilon> 0$, it is possible to pick an integer $nin mathbb{N}$ such that $n> frac{1}{varepsilon}$. Equivalently, $varepsilon> frac{1}{n}$. So given the gap of length $frac{1}{n}$ (the interval), you cannot step over it if the length of your step is $frac{1}{n}$. Starting from zero, and walking towards the interval, you will step into it at a point. If this requires $k$ steps, then $frac{k}{n}$ is in the interval.
Can you modify this proof to make it work for dyadic rationals?
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I posted my attempt with this idea.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
2
$begingroup$
It is a correct proof.
$endgroup$
– A. Pongrácz
Dec 29 '18 at 20:23
$begingroup$
Thank you! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:28
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Hint: There is no need to go through $mathbb Q$. Just prove that if $y>x$ there are integers $n,m$ such that $y-x>m2^{-n}$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The real number $mathbb{R}$ and hence all subsets of the real numbers have come with a notion of distance $left(a, bright) to left|a - bright|$ .
In particular the rationals themselves form a metric space, see ProofWiki .
This means we can use the definition of dense set from Wikipedia that requires the existence of a metric.
Here's the definition of the closure of a set, slightly rewritten
$$ bar{A} stackrel{def}{=} A cup left{lim_{n to infty} a_n text{ where } a in text{Seq}left[Aright] right} tag{1} $$
Note that $bar{A}$ is constrained to be a subset of $mathbb{Q}$ because $mathbb{Q}$ is where we're taking limits.
$$ A text{ is dense in } X stackrel{def}{iff} bar{A} = X tag{2} $$
One way to show it directly is to come up with an explicit sequence of dyadic rationals that converges to a given rational number $frac{a}{b}$ for every such $frac{a}{b} in mathbb{Q}$ .
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
That is my first idea, but I cannot find such sequence.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
$begingroup$
@LucasCorrêa ... what sort of hints are you okay with?
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 19:58
$begingroup$
My problem was in the construction of the sequence. My idea was take $d_{n} in D$ such thath $|d_{n} - a| < 1/n$ for some $a in mathbb{Q}$. But $mathbb{Q}$ is not complete, how can I ensure that $(d_{n})$ converges?
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:06
1
$begingroup$
I think a sequence of dyadic rationals that converges to an irrational number in $mathbb{R}$ simply does not converge to anything in $mathbb{Q}$ .
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 20:16
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Instead of reducing the statement to the density of $mathbb{Q}$, just use the same proof idea.
Remainder: $mathbb{Q}$ is dense, because given an interval of length $varepsilon> 0$, it is possible to pick an integer $nin mathbb{N}$ such that $n> frac{1}{varepsilon}$. Equivalently, $varepsilon> frac{1}{n}$. So given the gap of length $frac{1}{n}$ (the interval), you cannot step over it if the length of your step is $frac{1}{n}$. Starting from zero, and walking towards the interval, you will step into it at a point. If this requires $k$ steps, then $frac{k}{n}$ is in the interval.
Can you modify this proof to make it work for dyadic rationals?
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I posted my attempt with this idea.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
2
$begingroup$
It is a correct proof.
$endgroup$
– A. Pongrácz
Dec 29 '18 at 20:23
$begingroup$
Thank you! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:28
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Instead of reducing the statement to the density of $mathbb{Q}$, just use the same proof idea.
Remainder: $mathbb{Q}$ is dense, because given an interval of length $varepsilon> 0$, it is possible to pick an integer $nin mathbb{N}$ such that $n> frac{1}{varepsilon}$. Equivalently, $varepsilon> frac{1}{n}$. So given the gap of length $frac{1}{n}$ (the interval), you cannot step over it if the length of your step is $frac{1}{n}$. Starting from zero, and walking towards the interval, you will step into it at a point. If this requires $k$ steps, then $frac{k}{n}$ is in the interval.
Can you modify this proof to make it work for dyadic rationals?
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I posted my attempt with this idea.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
2
$begingroup$
It is a correct proof.
$endgroup$
– A. Pongrácz
Dec 29 '18 at 20:23
$begingroup$
Thank you! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:28
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Instead of reducing the statement to the density of $mathbb{Q}$, just use the same proof idea.
Remainder: $mathbb{Q}$ is dense, because given an interval of length $varepsilon> 0$, it is possible to pick an integer $nin mathbb{N}$ such that $n> frac{1}{varepsilon}$. Equivalently, $varepsilon> frac{1}{n}$. So given the gap of length $frac{1}{n}$ (the interval), you cannot step over it if the length of your step is $frac{1}{n}$. Starting from zero, and walking towards the interval, you will step into it at a point. If this requires $k$ steps, then $frac{k}{n}$ is in the interval.
Can you modify this proof to make it work for dyadic rationals?
$endgroup$
Instead of reducing the statement to the density of $mathbb{Q}$, just use the same proof idea.
Remainder: $mathbb{Q}$ is dense, because given an interval of length $varepsilon> 0$, it is possible to pick an integer $nin mathbb{N}$ such that $n> frac{1}{varepsilon}$. Equivalently, $varepsilon> frac{1}{n}$. So given the gap of length $frac{1}{n}$ (the interval), you cannot step over it if the length of your step is $frac{1}{n}$. Starting from zero, and walking towards the interval, you will step into it at a point. If this requires $k$ steps, then $frac{k}{n}$ is in the interval.
Can you modify this proof to make it work for dyadic rationals?
answered Dec 29 '18 at 19:32
A. PongráczA. Pongrácz
5,9381929
5,9381929
$begingroup$
I posted my attempt with this idea.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
2
$begingroup$
It is a correct proof.
$endgroup$
– A. Pongrácz
Dec 29 '18 at 20:23
$begingroup$
Thank you! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:28
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I posted my attempt with this idea.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
2
$begingroup$
It is a correct proof.
$endgroup$
– A. Pongrácz
Dec 29 '18 at 20:23
$begingroup$
Thank you! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:28
$begingroup$
I posted my attempt with this idea.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
$begingroup$
I posted my attempt with this idea.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
2
2
$begingroup$
It is a correct proof.
$endgroup$
– A. Pongrácz
Dec 29 '18 at 20:23
$begingroup$
It is a correct proof.
$endgroup$
– A. Pongrácz
Dec 29 '18 at 20:23
$begingroup$
Thank you! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:28
$begingroup$
Thank you! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:28
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Hint: There is no need to go through $mathbb Q$. Just prove that if $y>x$ there are integers $n,m$ such that $y-x>m2^{-n}$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Hint: There is no need to go through $mathbb Q$. Just prove that if $y>x$ there are integers $n,m$ such that $y-x>m2^{-n}$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Hint: There is no need to go through $mathbb Q$. Just prove that if $y>x$ there are integers $n,m$ such that $y-x>m2^{-n}$.
$endgroup$
Hint: There is no need to go through $mathbb Q$. Just prove that if $y>x$ there are integers $n,m$ such that $y-x>m2^{-n}$.
edited Dec 29 '18 at 19:34
answered Dec 29 '18 at 19:29
MatematletaMatematleta
10.2k2918
10.2k2918
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The real number $mathbb{R}$ and hence all subsets of the real numbers have come with a notion of distance $left(a, bright) to left|a - bright|$ .
In particular the rationals themselves form a metric space, see ProofWiki .
This means we can use the definition of dense set from Wikipedia that requires the existence of a metric.
Here's the definition of the closure of a set, slightly rewritten
$$ bar{A} stackrel{def}{=} A cup left{lim_{n to infty} a_n text{ where } a in text{Seq}left[Aright] right} tag{1} $$
Note that $bar{A}$ is constrained to be a subset of $mathbb{Q}$ because $mathbb{Q}$ is where we're taking limits.
$$ A text{ is dense in } X stackrel{def}{iff} bar{A} = X tag{2} $$
One way to show it directly is to come up with an explicit sequence of dyadic rationals that converges to a given rational number $frac{a}{b}$ for every such $frac{a}{b} in mathbb{Q}$ .
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
That is my first idea, but I cannot find such sequence.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
$begingroup$
@LucasCorrêa ... what sort of hints are you okay with?
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 19:58
$begingroup$
My problem was in the construction of the sequence. My idea was take $d_{n} in D$ such thath $|d_{n} - a| < 1/n$ for some $a in mathbb{Q}$. But $mathbb{Q}$ is not complete, how can I ensure that $(d_{n})$ converges?
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:06
1
$begingroup$
I think a sequence of dyadic rationals that converges to an irrational number in $mathbb{R}$ simply does not converge to anything in $mathbb{Q}$ .
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 20:16
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The real number $mathbb{R}$ and hence all subsets of the real numbers have come with a notion of distance $left(a, bright) to left|a - bright|$ .
In particular the rationals themselves form a metric space, see ProofWiki .
This means we can use the definition of dense set from Wikipedia that requires the existence of a metric.
Here's the definition of the closure of a set, slightly rewritten
$$ bar{A} stackrel{def}{=} A cup left{lim_{n to infty} a_n text{ where } a in text{Seq}left[Aright] right} tag{1} $$
Note that $bar{A}$ is constrained to be a subset of $mathbb{Q}$ because $mathbb{Q}$ is where we're taking limits.
$$ A text{ is dense in } X stackrel{def}{iff} bar{A} = X tag{2} $$
One way to show it directly is to come up with an explicit sequence of dyadic rationals that converges to a given rational number $frac{a}{b}$ for every such $frac{a}{b} in mathbb{Q}$ .
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
That is my first idea, but I cannot find such sequence.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
$begingroup$
@LucasCorrêa ... what sort of hints are you okay with?
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 19:58
$begingroup$
My problem was in the construction of the sequence. My idea was take $d_{n} in D$ such thath $|d_{n} - a| < 1/n$ for some $a in mathbb{Q}$. But $mathbb{Q}$ is not complete, how can I ensure that $(d_{n})$ converges?
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:06
1
$begingroup$
I think a sequence of dyadic rationals that converges to an irrational number in $mathbb{R}$ simply does not converge to anything in $mathbb{Q}$ .
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 20:16
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The real number $mathbb{R}$ and hence all subsets of the real numbers have come with a notion of distance $left(a, bright) to left|a - bright|$ .
In particular the rationals themselves form a metric space, see ProofWiki .
This means we can use the definition of dense set from Wikipedia that requires the existence of a metric.
Here's the definition of the closure of a set, slightly rewritten
$$ bar{A} stackrel{def}{=} A cup left{lim_{n to infty} a_n text{ where } a in text{Seq}left[Aright] right} tag{1} $$
Note that $bar{A}$ is constrained to be a subset of $mathbb{Q}$ because $mathbb{Q}$ is where we're taking limits.
$$ A text{ is dense in } X stackrel{def}{iff} bar{A} = X tag{2} $$
One way to show it directly is to come up with an explicit sequence of dyadic rationals that converges to a given rational number $frac{a}{b}$ for every such $frac{a}{b} in mathbb{Q}$ .
$endgroup$
The real number $mathbb{R}$ and hence all subsets of the real numbers have come with a notion of distance $left(a, bright) to left|a - bright|$ .
In particular the rationals themselves form a metric space, see ProofWiki .
This means we can use the definition of dense set from Wikipedia that requires the existence of a metric.
Here's the definition of the closure of a set, slightly rewritten
$$ bar{A} stackrel{def}{=} A cup left{lim_{n to infty} a_n text{ where } a in text{Seq}left[Aright] right} tag{1} $$
Note that $bar{A}$ is constrained to be a subset of $mathbb{Q}$ because $mathbb{Q}$ is where we're taking limits.
$$ A text{ is dense in } X stackrel{def}{iff} bar{A} = X tag{2} $$
One way to show it directly is to come up with an explicit sequence of dyadic rationals that converges to a given rational number $frac{a}{b}$ for every such $frac{a}{b} in mathbb{Q}$ .
answered Dec 29 '18 at 19:53
Gregory NisbetGregory Nisbet
561312
561312
$begingroup$
That is my first idea, but I cannot find such sequence.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
$begingroup$
@LucasCorrêa ... what sort of hints are you okay with?
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 19:58
$begingroup$
My problem was in the construction of the sequence. My idea was take $d_{n} in D$ such thath $|d_{n} - a| < 1/n$ for some $a in mathbb{Q}$. But $mathbb{Q}$ is not complete, how can I ensure that $(d_{n})$ converges?
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:06
1
$begingroup$
I think a sequence of dyadic rationals that converges to an irrational number in $mathbb{R}$ simply does not converge to anything in $mathbb{Q}$ .
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 20:16
add a comment |
$begingroup$
That is my first idea, but I cannot find such sequence.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
$begingroup$
@LucasCorrêa ... what sort of hints are you okay with?
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 19:58
$begingroup$
My problem was in the construction of the sequence. My idea was take $d_{n} in D$ such thath $|d_{n} - a| < 1/n$ for some $a in mathbb{Q}$. But $mathbb{Q}$ is not complete, how can I ensure that $(d_{n})$ converges?
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:06
1
$begingroup$
I think a sequence of dyadic rationals that converges to an irrational number in $mathbb{R}$ simply does not converge to anything in $mathbb{Q}$ .
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 20:16
$begingroup$
That is my first idea, but I cannot find such sequence.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
$begingroup$
That is my first idea, but I cannot find such sequence.
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 19:57
$begingroup$
@LucasCorrêa ... what sort of hints are you okay with?
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 19:58
$begingroup$
@LucasCorrêa ... what sort of hints are you okay with?
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 19:58
$begingroup$
My problem was in the construction of the sequence. My idea was take $d_{n} in D$ such thath $|d_{n} - a| < 1/n$ for some $a in mathbb{Q}$. But $mathbb{Q}$ is not complete, how can I ensure that $(d_{n})$ converges?
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:06
$begingroup$
My problem was in the construction of the sequence. My idea was take $d_{n} in D$ such thath $|d_{n} - a| < 1/n$ for some $a in mathbb{Q}$. But $mathbb{Q}$ is not complete, how can I ensure that $(d_{n})$ converges?
$endgroup$
– Lucas Corrêa
Dec 29 '18 at 20:06
1
1
$begingroup$
I think a sequence of dyadic rationals that converges to an irrational number in $mathbb{R}$ simply does not converge to anything in $mathbb{Q}$ .
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 20:16
$begingroup$
I think a sequence of dyadic rationals that converges to an irrational number in $mathbb{R}$ simply does not converge to anything in $mathbb{Q}$ .
$endgroup$
– Gregory Nisbet
Dec 29 '18 at 20:16
add a comment |
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StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
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Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
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Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown