Partial Derivative and fraction
$begingroup$
In the George F Simmons Calculus with Analytical Geometry, textbook, it is mentioned that the Partial derivatives of a function cannot be treated as fractions as in case of single variable function.
In the example provided it has been proved that,
from
$pV = nRT$
where,
- p - pressure
- T - Temperature
- V - Volume
- n - number of moles
- R - Universal gas constant
$dfrac{partial{p}}{partial{T}} dfrac{partial{T}}{partial{V}} dfrac{partial{V}}{partial{p}} = -1$
which is fine, but in the explanation, it is given as,
as the right hand side is -1 and not 1 we cannot treat the LHS of the above statement as fractions
If I am not wrong the 1st statement would mean, we cannot expand a partial differential as say,
$dfrac{d y}{d t} = dfrac{dy}{dx}dfrac{dx}{dt}$, where, $y=y(x)$ and $x = x(t)$,for a single variable function and we cannot represent the same for partial differentials the same manner if $y = y(x,t)$
What what is the significance of +1 or -1 for a differential to represented as a fraction?
pde partial-derivative
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In the George F Simmons Calculus with Analytical Geometry, textbook, it is mentioned that the Partial derivatives of a function cannot be treated as fractions as in case of single variable function.
In the example provided it has been proved that,
from
$pV = nRT$
where,
- p - pressure
- T - Temperature
- V - Volume
- n - number of moles
- R - Universal gas constant
$dfrac{partial{p}}{partial{T}} dfrac{partial{T}}{partial{V}} dfrac{partial{V}}{partial{p}} = -1$
which is fine, but in the explanation, it is given as,
as the right hand side is -1 and not 1 we cannot treat the LHS of the above statement as fractions
If I am not wrong the 1st statement would mean, we cannot expand a partial differential as say,
$dfrac{d y}{d t} = dfrac{dy}{dx}dfrac{dx}{dt}$, where, $y=y(x)$ and $x = x(t)$,for a single variable function and we cannot represent the same for partial differentials the same manner if $y = y(x,t)$
What what is the significance of +1 or -1 for a differential to represented as a fraction?
pde partial-derivative
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In the George F Simmons Calculus with Analytical Geometry, textbook, it is mentioned that the Partial derivatives of a function cannot be treated as fractions as in case of single variable function.
In the example provided it has been proved that,
from
$pV = nRT$
where,
- p - pressure
- T - Temperature
- V - Volume
- n - number of moles
- R - Universal gas constant
$dfrac{partial{p}}{partial{T}} dfrac{partial{T}}{partial{V}} dfrac{partial{V}}{partial{p}} = -1$
which is fine, but in the explanation, it is given as,
as the right hand side is -1 and not 1 we cannot treat the LHS of the above statement as fractions
If I am not wrong the 1st statement would mean, we cannot expand a partial differential as say,
$dfrac{d y}{d t} = dfrac{dy}{dx}dfrac{dx}{dt}$, where, $y=y(x)$ and $x = x(t)$,for a single variable function and we cannot represent the same for partial differentials the same manner if $y = y(x,t)$
What what is the significance of +1 or -1 for a differential to represented as a fraction?
pde partial-derivative
$endgroup$
In the George F Simmons Calculus with Analytical Geometry, textbook, it is mentioned that the Partial derivatives of a function cannot be treated as fractions as in case of single variable function.
In the example provided it has been proved that,
from
$pV = nRT$
where,
- p - pressure
- T - Temperature
- V - Volume
- n - number of moles
- R - Universal gas constant
$dfrac{partial{p}}{partial{T}} dfrac{partial{T}}{partial{V}} dfrac{partial{V}}{partial{p}} = -1$
which is fine, but in the explanation, it is given as,
as the right hand side is -1 and not 1 we cannot treat the LHS of the above statement as fractions
If I am not wrong the 1st statement would mean, we cannot expand a partial differential as say,
$dfrac{d y}{d t} = dfrac{dy}{dx}dfrac{dx}{dt}$, where, $y=y(x)$ and $x = x(t)$,for a single variable function and we cannot represent the same for partial differentials the same manner if $y = y(x,t)$
What what is the significance of +1 or -1 for a differential to represented as a fraction?
pde partial-derivative
pde partial-derivative
edited Jan 1 at 5:34
Raptor
asked Jan 1 at 5:23
RaptorRaptor
3317
3317
add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Yes. $$dfrac{partial{x}}{partial{y}} dfrac{partial{y}}{partial{x}} neq dfrac{partial{x}}{partial{z}}$$
The equation above is an example to this phenomenon.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Does it just mean that the whole thing wont cancel out to give us 1 thus, cannot be represented as a fraction?
$endgroup$
– Raptor
Jan 1 at 5:47
$begingroup$
Yes true. You can't think of them as fraction, otherwise the product must be $1$ which is not the case.
$endgroup$
– mouthetics
Jan 1 at 5:50
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Although there's nothing wrong with the answer from mouthetics I would like to expand on something: ultimately what allows you to go from the lhs to rhs is the chain rule. For example, if $y = y(x, t)$ and $x = x(t)$ then
$$
frac{{rm d}y}{{rm d} t} = frac{partial y}{partial x}frac{{rm d}x}{{rm d}t} + frac{partial y}{partial t}
$$
However, consider this other case. Imagine a function $f(x, y, z) = 0$. Now suppose you can invert this relation to obtain $z = z(x, y)$, if you apply the chain rule you will get
$$
{rm d}z = left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_{y}{rm d}x + left(frac{partial z}{partial y}right)_x{rm d}y tag{1}
$$
where I have used the script to indicate that variable remains fixed. Suppose now that you move along a path on the surface $f(x,y,z) = 0$, where $z$ is kept constant. In this case you can also invert the function $f$ to obtain $y = y(x)$ and
$$
{rm d}y = left(frac{partial y}{partial x}right)_z{rm d}x tag{2}
$$
Here it is more obvious why this notation is useful, it emphasizes the fact that we keep $z$ constant. Replace that in (1) with ${rm d}z = 0$ (remember, $z$ is constant) and you will get
$$
0 = left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_{y}{rm d}x + left(frac{partial z}{partial y}right)_x left(frac{partial y}{partial x}right)_z{rm d}x tag{3}
$$
And from here is trivial to obtain
$$
left(frac{partial x}{partial y}right)_z left(frac{partial y}{partial z}right)_x left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_y = -1 tag{4}
$$
Note that this is a result of consistently using the chain rule, and keeping track what function depends on what variables.
In your case just set $x = P, y = V, z = T$, the function $f(x,y,z)$ is called a equation of state
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Yes. $$dfrac{partial{x}}{partial{y}} dfrac{partial{y}}{partial{x}} neq dfrac{partial{x}}{partial{z}}$$
The equation above is an example to this phenomenon.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Does it just mean that the whole thing wont cancel out to give us 1 thus, cannot be represented as a fraction?
$endgroup$
– Raptor
Jan 1 at 5:47
$begingroup$
Yes true. You can't think of them as fraction, otherwise the product must be $1$ which is not the case.
$endgroup$
– mouthetics
Jan 1 at 5:50
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes. $$dfrac{partial{x}}{partial{y}} dfrac{partial{y}}{partial{x}} neq dfrac{partial{x}}{partial{z}}$$
The equation above is an example to this phenomenon.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Does it just mean that the whole thing wont cancel out to give us 1 thus, cannot be represented as a fraction?
$endgroup$
– Raptor
Jan 1 at 5:47
$begingroup$
Yes true. You can't think of them as fraction, otherwise the product must be $1$ which is not the case.
$endgroup$
– mouthetics
Jan 1 at 5:50
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes. $$dfrac{partial{x}}{partial{y}} dfrac{partial{y}}{partial{x}} neq dfrac{partial{x}}{partial{z}}$$
The equation above is an example to this phenomenon.
$endgroup$
Yes. $$dfrac{partial{x}}{partial{y}} dfrac{partial{y}}{partial{x}} neq dfrac{partial{x}}{partial{z}}$$
The equation above is an example to this phenomenon.
answered Jan 1 at 5:44
moutheticsmouthetics
50127
50127
$begingroup$
Does it just mean that the whole thing wont cancel out to give us 1 thus, cannot be represented as a fraction?
$endgroup$
– Raptor
Jan 1 at 5:47
$begingroup$
Yes true. You can't think of them as fraction, otherwise the product must be $1$ which is not the case.
$endgroup$
– mouthetics
Jan 1 at 5:50
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Does it just mean that the whole thing wont cancel out to give us 1 thus, cannot be represented as a fraction?
$endgroup$
– Raptor
Jan 1 at 5:47
$begingroup$
Yes true. You can't think of them as fraction, otherwise the product must be $1$ which is not the case.
$endgroup$
– mouthetics
Jan 1 at 5:50
$begingroup$
Does it just mean that the whole thing wont cancel out to give us 1 thus, cannot be represented as a fraction?
$endgroup$
– Raptor
Jan 1 at 5:47
$begingroup$
Does it just mean that the whole thing wont cancel out to give us 1 thus, cannot be represented as a fraction?
$endgroup$
– Raptor
Jan 1 at 5:47
$begingroup$
Yes true. You can't think of them as fraction, otherwise the product must be $1$ which is not the case.
$endgroup$
– mouthetics
Jan 1 at 5:50
$begingroup$
Yes true. You can't think of them as fraction, otherwise the product must be $1$ which is not the case.
$endgroup$
– mouthetics
Jan 1 at 5:50
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Although there's nothing wrong with the answer from mouthetics I would like to expand on something: ultimately what allows you to go from the lhs to rhs is the chain rule. For example, if $y = y(x, t)$ and $x = x(t)$ then
$$
frac{{rm d}y}{{rm d} t} = frac{partial y}{partial x}frac{{rm d}x}{{rm d}t} + frac{partial y}{partial t}
$$
However, consider this other case. Imagine a function $f(x, y, z) = 0$. Now suppose you can invert this relation to obtain $z = z(x, y)$, if you apply the chain rule you will get
$$
{rm d}z = left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_{y}{rm d}x + left(frac{partial z}{partial y}right)_x{rm d}y tag{1}
$$
where I have used the script to indicate that variable remains fixed. Suppose now that you move along a path on the surface $f(x,y,z) = 0$, where $z$ is kept constant. In this case you can also invert the function $f$ to obtain $y = y(x)$ and
$$
{rm d}y = left(frac{partial y}{partial x}right)_z{rm d}x tag{2}
$$
Here it is more obvious why this notation is useful, it emphasizes the fact that we keep $z$ constant. Replace that in (1) with ${rm d}z = 0$ (remember, $z$ is constant) and you will get
$$
0 = left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_{y}{rm d}x + left(frac{partial z}{partial y}right)_x left(frac{partial y}{partial x}right)_z{rm d}x tag{3}
$$
And from here is trivial to obtain
$$
left(frac{partial x}{partial y}right)_z left(frac{partial y}{partial z}right)_x left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_y = -1 tag{4}
$$
Note that this is a result of consistently using the chain rule, and keeping track what function depends on what variables.
In your case just set $x = P, y = V, z = T$, the function $f(x,y,z)$ is called a equation of state
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Although there's nothing wrong with the answer from mouthetics I would like to expand on something: ultimately what allows you to go from the lhs to rhs is the chain rule. For example, if $y = y(x, t)$ and $x = x(t)$ then
$$
frac{{rm d}y}{{rm d} t} = frac{partial y}{partial x}frac{{rm d}x}{{rm d}t} + frac{partial y}{partial t}
$$
However, consider this other case. Imagine a function $f(x, y, z) = 0$. Now suppose you can invert this relation to obtain $z = z(x, y)$, if you apply the chain rule you will get
$$
{rm d}z = left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_{y}{rm d}x + left(frac{partial z}{partial y}right)_x{rm d}y tag{1}
$$
where I have used the script to indicate that variable remains fixed. Suppose now that you move along a path on the surface $f(x,y,z) = 0$, where $z$ is kept constant. In this case you can also invert the function $f$ to obtain $y = y(x)$ and
$$
{rm d}y = left(frac{partial y}{partial x}right)_z{rm d}x tag{2}
$$
Here it is more obvious why this notation is useful, it emphasizes the fact that we keep $z$ constant. Replace that in (1) with ${rm d}z = 0$ (remember, $z$ is constant) and you will get
$$
0 = left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_{y}{rm d}x + left(frac{partial z}{partial y}right)_x left(frac{partial y}{partial x}right)_z{rm d}x tag{3}
$$
And from here is trivial to obtain
$$
left(frac{partial x}{partial y}right)_z left(frac{partial y}{partial z}right)_x left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_y = -1 tag{4}
$$
Note that this is a result of consistently using the chain rule, and keeping track what function depends on what variables.
In your case just set $x = P, y = V, z = T$, the function $f(x,y,z)$ is called a equation of state
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Although there's nothing wrong with the answer from mouthetics I would like to expand on something: ultimately what allows you to go from the lhs to rhs is the chain rule. For example, if $y = y(x, t)$ and $x = x(t)$ then
$$
frac{{rm d}y}{{rm d} t} = frac{partial y}{partial x}frac{{rm d}x}{{rm d}t} + frac{partial y}{partial t}
$$
However, consider this other case. Imagine a function $f(x, y, z) = 0$. Now suppose you can invert this relation to obtain $z = z(x, y)$, if you apply the chain rule you will get
$$
{rm d}z = left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_{y}{rm d}x + left(frac{partial z}{partial y}right)_x{rm d}y tag{1}
$$
where I have used the script to indicate that variable remains fixed. Suppose now that you move along a path on the surface $f(x,y,z) = 0$, where $z$ is kept constant. In this case you can also invert the function $f$ to obtain $y = y(x)$ and
$$
{rm d}y = left(frac{partial y}{partial x}right)_z{rm d}x tag{2}
$$
Here it is more obvious why this notation is useful, it emphasizes the fact that we keep $z$ constant. Replace that in (1) with ${rm d}z = 0$ (remember, $z$ is constant) and you will get
$$
0 = left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_{y}{rm d}x + left(frac{partial z}{partial y}right)_x left(frac{partial y}{partial x}right)_z{rm d}x tag{3}
$$
And from here is trivial to obtain
$$
left(frac{partial x}{partial y}right)_z left(frac{partial y}{partial z}right)_x left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_y = -1 tag{4}
$$
Note that this is a result of consistently using the chain rule, and keeping track what function depends on what variables.
In your case just set $x = P, y = V, z = T$, the function $f(x,y,z)$ is called a equation of state
$endgroup$
Although there's nothing wrong with the answer from mouthetics I would like to expand on something: ultimately what allows you to go from the lhs to rhs is the chain rule. For example, if $y = y(x, t)$ and $x = x(t)$ then
$$
frac{{rm d}y}{{rm d} t} = frac{partial y}{partial x}frac{{rm d}x}{{rm d}t} + frac{partial y}{partial t}
$$
However, consider this other case. Imagine a function $f(x, y, z) = 0$. Now suppose you can invert this relation to obtain $z = z(x, y)$, if you apply the chain rule you will get
$$
{rm d}z = left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_{y}{rm d}x + left(frac{partial z}{partial y}right)_x{rm d}y tag{1}
$$
where I have used the script to indicate that variable remains fixed. Suppose now that you move along a path on the surface $f(x,y,z) = 0$, where $z$ is kept constant. In this case you can also invert the function $f$ to obtain $y = y(x)$ and
$$
{rm d}y = left(frac{partial y}{partial x}right)_z{rm d}x tag{2}
$$
Here it is more obvious why this notation is useful, it emphasizes the fact that we keep $z$ constant. Replace that in (1) with ${rm d}z = 0$ (remember, $z$ is constant) and you will get
$$
0 = left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_{y}{rm d}x + left(frac{partial z}{partial y}right)_x left(frac{partial y}{partial x}right)_z{rm d}x tag{3}
$$
And from here is trivial to obtain
$$
left(frac{partial x}{partial y}right)_z left(frac{partial y}{partial z}right)_x left(frac{partial z}{partial x}right)_y = -1 tag{4}
$$
Note that this is a result of consistently using the chain rule, and keeping track what function depends on what variables.
In your case just set $x = P, y = V, z = T$, the function $f(x,y,z)$ is called a equation of state
answered Jan 1 at 10:49
caveraccaverac
14.4k31130
14.4k31130
add a comment |
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