What does “…from nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons” mean?





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3












$begingroup$


I'm sure your first thought is, that's perfectly clear. Unfortunately my group who aren't normally rules lawyers disagree.



Party encounters a Werewolf (MM p.211). It has:




Damage Immunities: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical
attacks not made with silvered weapons.




My reading of that is if the weapon has to be magical and silvered to hurt it. So a +1 silver dagger will hurt it, but a +1 regular dagger or a +0 silver dagger won't. The group's interpretation was that all three of those weapons would hurt and only a +0 regular dagger would be ineffective.



I would also note my interpretation would mean something like blade barrier would also not harm it since you could argue they're magical blades but nothing indicates that they're silvered.



This also appears to be the same wording for some undead so I'm not looking for a lycanthrope specific interpretation but something general for every time that wording is used.



Thanks in advance.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Related: Which monsters have immunity or resistance to non-silvered non-magical weapons?, Does nonmagical ammunition fired with silvered bow overcome resistance?, Does a Mundane Arrow Fired From a Magical Bow Count as a Magical Weapon Attack?, Are spells that do piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage considered magical damage?
    $endgroup$
    – V2Blast
    Feb 10 at 0:01








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Morgan%27s_laws -- "IMMUNE if and only if NOT MAGICAL AND NOT SILVERED" is equivalent (by negating both sides) to "SUFFERS DAMAGE if and only if MAGICAL OR SILVERED"
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Voigt
    Feb 11 at 6:01


















3












$begingroup$


I'm sure your first thought is, that's perfectly clear. Unfortunately my group who aren't normally rules lawyers disagree.



Party encounters a Werewolf (MM p.211). It has:




Damage Immunities: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical
attacks not made with silvered weapons.




My reading of that is if the weapon has to be magical and silvered to hurt it. So a +1 silver dagger will hurt it, but a +1 regular dagger or a +0 silver dagger won't. The group's interpretation was that all three of those weapons would hurt and only a +0 regular dagger would be ineffective.



I would also note my interpretation would mean something like blade barrier would also not harm it since you could argue they're magical blades but nothing indicates that they're silvered.



This also appears to be the same wording for some undead so I'm not looking for a lycanthrope specific interpretation but something general for every time that wording is used.



Thanks in advance.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Related: Which monsters have immunity or resistance to non-silvered non-magical weapons?, Does nonmagical ammunition fired with silvered bow overcome resistance?, Does a Mundane Arrow Fired From a Magical Bow Count as a Magical Weapon Attack?, Are spells that do piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage considered magical damage?
    $endgroup$
    – V2Blast
    Feb 10 at 0:01








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Morgan%27s_laws -- "IMMUNE if and only if NOT MAGICAL AND NOT SILVERED" is equivalent (by negating both sides) to "SUFFERS DAMAGE if and only if MAGICAL OR SILVERED"
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Voigt
    Feb 11 at 6:01














3












3








3





$begingroup$


I'm sure your first thought is, that's perfectly clear. Unfortunately my group who aren't normally rules lawyers disagree.



Party encounters a Werewolf (MM p.211). It has:




Damage Immunities: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical
attacks not made with silvered weapons.




My reading of that is if the weapon has to be magical and silvered to hurt it. So a +1 silver dagger will hurt it, but a +1 regular dagger or a +0 silver dagger won't. The group's interpretation was that all three of those weapons would hurt and only a +0 regular dagger would be ineffective.



I would also note my interpretation would mean something like blade barrier would also not harm it since you could argue they're magical blades but nothing indicates that they're silvered.



This also appears to be the same wording for some undead so I'm not looking for a lycanthrope specific interpretation but something general for every time that wording is used.



Thanks in advance.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




I'm sure your first thought is, that's perfectly clear. Unfortunately my group who aren't normally rules lawyers disagree.



Party encounters a Werewolf (MM p.211). It has:




Damage Immunities: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical
attacks not made with silvered weapons.




My reading of that is if the weapon has to be magical and silvered to hurt it. So a +1 silver dagger will hurt it, but a +1 regular dagger or a +0 silver dagger won't. The group's interpretation was that all three of those weapons would hurt and only a +0 regular dagger would be ineffective.



I would also note my interpretation would mean something like blade barrier would also not harm it since you could argue they're magical blades but nothing indicates that they're silvered.



This also appears to be the same wording for some undead so I'm not looking for a lycanthrope specific interpretation but something general for every time that wording is used.



Thanks in advance.







dnd-5e magic-items weapons special-materials






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edited Feb 10 at 0:00









V2Blast

26.3k591161




26.3k591161










asked Feb 9 at 23:59









The Lost KittenThe Lost Kitten

1,0252516




1,0252516












  • $begingroup$
    Related: Which monsters have immunity or resistance to non-silvered non-magical weapons?, Does nonmagical ammunition fired with silvered bow overcome resistance?, Does a Mundane Arrow Fired From a Magical Bow Count as a Magical Weapon Attack?, Are spells that do piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage considered magical damage?
    $endgroup$
    – V2Blast
    Feb 10 at 0:01








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Morgan%27s_laws -- "IMMUNE if and only if NOT MAGICAL AND NOT SILVERED" is equivalent (by negating both sides) to "SUFFERS DAMAGE if and only if MAGICAL OR SILVERED"
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Voigt
    Feb 11 at 6:01


















  • $begingroup$
    Related: Which monsters have immunity or resistance to non-silvered non-magical weapons?, Does nonmagical ammunition fired with silvered bow overcome resistance?, Does a Mundane Arrow Fired From a Magical Bow Count as a Magical Weapon Attack?, Are spells that do piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage considered magical damage?
    $endgroup$
    – V2Blast
    Feb 10 at 0:01








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Morgan%27s_laws -- "IMMUNE if and only if NOT MAGICAL AND NOT SILVERED" is equivalent (by negating both sides) to "SUFFERS DAMAGE if and only if MAGICAL OR SILVERED"
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Voigt
    Feb 11 at 6:01
















$begingroup$
Related: Which monsters have immunity or resistance to non-silvered non-magical weapons?, Does nonmagical ammunition fired with silvered bow overcome resistance?, Does a Mundane Arrow Fired From a Magical Bow Count as a Magical Weapon Attack?, Are spells that do piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage considered magical damage?
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
Feb 10 at 0:01






$begingroup$
Related: Which monsters have immunity or resistance to non-silvered non-magical weapons?, Does nonmagical ammunition fired with silvered bow overcome resistance?, Does a Mundane Arrow Fired From a Magical Bow Count as a Magical Weapon Attack?, Are spells that do piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage considered magical damage?
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
Feb 10 at 0:01






1




1




$begingroup$
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Morgan%27s_laws -- "IMMUNE if and only if NOT MAGICAL AND NOT SILVERED" is equivalent (by negating both sides) to "SUFFERS DAMAGE if and only if MAGICAL OR SILVERED"
$endgroup$
– Ben Voigt
Feb 11 at 6:01




$begingroup$
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Morgan%27s_laws -- "IMMUNE if and only if NOT MAGICAL AND NOT SILVERED" is equivalent (by negating both sides) to "SUFFERS DAMAGE if and only if MAGICAL OR SILVERED"
$endgroup$
– Ben Voigt
Feb 11 at 6:01










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















30












$begingroup$

Meeting either criteria is enough to overcome the immunity



The werewolf's damage immunity applies to "Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks that aren't Silvered". Let's assume to begin with that the damage we're considering is bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, since the werewolf isn't immune to other damage types.



Is the attack magical? Then the werewolf is not immune to its damage.



Is the attack made with a silvered weapon? Then the werewolf is not immune to its damage.



Otherwise, if neither of these two criteria is met, then the werewolf is immune to the damage. Note that the werewolf is not immune to damage of these types from things that are not attacks, such as bludgeoning damage from a fall, or piercing damage from a spike trap that calls for a Dexterity saving throw.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    15












    $begingroup$

    Silvered weapons are an exception to the immunity to damage from nonmagical attacks.



    The phrase "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" means "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks [except those made] with silvered weapons."



    To phrase it in an inverted sense as damage susceptibility rather than damage immunity, the werewolf can be damaged by magical attacks (since they aren't nonmagical attacks) or by silvered weapons (since silvered weapons are an exception), but attacks that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage will be negated if they aren't magical and aren't made with silvered weapons.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$





















      9












      $begingroup$

      My interpretation, which is supported by other people whom I've been GMed by, is that damage "from nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" refers to damage from weapons that are neither magical nor silvered. A silvered weapon, or a magical weapon, would deal damage.



      Your definition would be worded as "any damage from weapons that are not magical and silvered." making it clear that the item would need to be both silvered and magical.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$





















        2












        $begingroup$

        The wording is a bit strange, but maybe this visual will help.



        enter image description here






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$













        • $begingroup$
          The image is slightly misleading in that it suggests there's any area not covered by "magical" and "nonmagical"... :P
          $endgroup$
          – V2Blast
          Feb 12 at 6:52



















        1












        $begingroup$

        Werewolves can be damaged by any magical weapons of +1 or better or any silver weapons. The Lore of D&D monsters, in general, does not change that often. Here is a werewolf from 2e, in which the immunity is described more clearly:




        In the wolf form, the werewolf can be harmed only by silver or magical weapons of +1 or better. Wounds from other weapons heal too quickly to actually injure the werewolf.







        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$









        • 1




          $begingroup$
          In 5e a weapon does not have to be +1 in order to count as a magical weapon. For example the Dagger of Blindsight is a magic weapon with no bonus: dndbeyond.com/magic-items/dagger-of-blindsight
          $endgroup$
          – illustro
          Feb 11 at 22:11












        Your Answer





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        5 Answers
        5






        active

        oldest

        votes








        5 Answers
        5






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        30












        $begingroup$

        Meeting either criteria is enough to overcome the immunity



        The werewolf's damage immunity applies to "Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks that aren't Silvered". Let's assume to begin with that the damage we're considering is bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, since the werewolf isn't immune to other damage types.



        Is the attack magical? Then the werewolf is not immune to its damage.



        Is the attack made with a silvered weapon? Then the werewolf is not immune to its damage.



        Otherwise, if neither of these two criteria is met, then the werewolf is immune to the damage. Note that the werewolf is not immune to damage of these types from things that are not attacks, such as bludgeoning damage from a fall, or piercing damage from a spike trap that calls for a Dexterity saving throw.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$


















          30












          $begingroup$

          Meeting either criteria is enough to overcome the immunity



          The werewolf's damage immunity applies to "Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks that aren't Silvered". Let's assume to begin with that the damage we're considering is bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, since the werewolf isn't immune to other damage types.



          Is the attack magical? Then the werewolf is not immune to its damage.



          Is the attack made with a silvered weapon? Then the werewolf is not immune to its damage.



          Otherwise, if neither of these two criteria is met, then the werewolf is immune to the damage. Note that the werewolf is not immune to damage of these types from things that are not attacks, such as bludgeoning damage from a fall, or piercing damage from a spike trap that calls for a Dexterity saving throw.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$
















            30












            30








            30





            $begingroup$

            Meeting either criteria is enough to overcome the immunity



            The werewolf's damage immunity applies to "Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks that aren't Silvered". Let's assume to begin with that the damage we're considering is bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, since the werewolf isn't immune to other damage types.



            Is the attack magical? Then the werewolf is not immune to its damage.



            Is the attack made with a silvered weapon? Then the werewolf is not immune to its damage.



            Otherwise, if neither of these two criteria is met, then the werewolf is immune to the damage. Note that the werewolf is not immune to damage of these types from things that are not attacks, such as bludgeoning damage from a fall, or piercing damage from a spike trap that calls for a Dexterity saving throw.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            Meeting either criteria is enough to overcome the immunity



            The werewolf's damage immunity applies to "Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks that aren't Silvered". Let's assume to begin with that the damage we're considering is bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, since the werewolf isn't immune to other damage types.



            Is the attack magical? Then the werewolf is not immune to its damage.



            Is the attack made with a silvered weapon? Then the werewolf is not immune to its damage.



            Otherwise, if neither of these two criteria is met, then the werewolf is immune to the damage. Note that the werewolf is not immune to damage of these types from things that are not attacks, such as bludgeoning damage from a fall, or piercing damage from a spike trap that calls for a Dexterity saving throw.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Feb 10 at 0:07









            V2BlastV2Blast

            26.3k591161




            26.3k591161

























                15












                $begingroup$

                Silvered weapons are an exception to the immunity to damage from nonmagical attacks.



                The phrase "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" means "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks [except those made] with silvered weapons."



                To phrase it in an inverted sense as damage susceptibility rather than damage immunity, the werewolf can be damaged by magical attacks (since they aren't nonmagical attacks) or by silvered weapons (since silvered weapons are an exception), but attacks that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage will be negated if they aren't magical and aren't made with silvered weapons.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$


















                  15












                  $begingroup$

                  Silvered weapons are an exception to the immunity to damage from nonmagical attacks.



                  The phrase "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" means "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks [except those made] with silvered weapons."



                  To phrase it in an inverted sense as damage susceptibility rather than damage immunity, the werewolf can be damaged by magical attacks (since they aren't nonmagical attacks) or by silvered weapons (since silvered weapons are an exception), but attacks that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage will be negated if they aren't magical and aren't made with silvered weapons.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$
















                    15












                    15








                    15





                    $begingroup$

                    Silvered weapons are an exception to the immunity to damage from nonmagical attacks.



                    The phrase "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" means "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks [except those made] with silvered weapons."



                    To phrase it in an inverted sense as damage susceptibility rather than damage immunity, the werewolf can be damaged by magical attacks (since they aren't nonmagical attacks) or by silvered weapons (since silvered weapons are an exception), but attacks that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage will be negated if they aren't magical and aren't made with silvered weapons.






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    Silvered weapons are an exception to the immunity to damage from nonmagical attacks.



                    The phrase "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" means "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks [except those made] with silvered weapons."



                    To phrase it in an inverted sense as damage susceptibility rather than damage immunity, the werewolf can be damaged by magical attacks (since they aren't nonmagical attacks) or by silvered weapons (since silvered weapons are an exception), but attacks that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage will be negated if they aren't magical and aren't made with silvered weapons.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered Feb 10 at 0:06









                    BloodcinderBloodcinder

                    24.1k389144




                    24.1k389144























                        9












                        $begingroup$

                        My interpretation, which is supported by other people whom I've been GMed by, is that damage "from nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" refers to damage from weapons that are neither magical nor silvered. A silvered weapon, or a magical weapon, would deal damage.



                        Your definition would be worded as "any damage from weapons that are not magical and silvered." making it clear that the item would need to be both silvered and magical.






                        share|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$


















                          9












                          $begingroup$

                          My interpretation, which is supported by other people whom I've been GMed by, is that damage "from nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" refers to damage from weapons that are neither magical nor silvered. A silvered weapon, or a magical weapon, would deal damage.



                          Your definition would be worded as "any damage from weapons that are not magical and silvered." making it clear that the item would need to be both silvered and magical.






                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$
















                            9












                            9








                            9





                            $begingroup$

                            My interpretation, which is supported by other people whom I've been GMed by, is that damage "from nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" refers to damage from weapons that are neither magical nor silvered. A silvered weapon, or a magical weapon, would deal damage.



                            Your definition would be worded as "any damage from weapons that are not magical and silvered." making it clear that the item would need to be both silvered and magical.






                            share|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$



                            My interpretation, which is supported by other people whom I've been GMed by, is that damage "from nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" refers to damage from weapons that are neither magical nor silvered. A silvered weapon, or a magical weapon, would deal damage.



                            Your definition would be worded as "any damage from weapons that are not magical and silvered." making it clear that the item would need to be both silvered and magical.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered Feb 10 at 0:06









                            Miles BedingerMiles Bedinger

                            4,034640




                            4,034640























                                2












                                $begingroup$

                                The wording is a bit strange, but maybe this visual will help.



                                enter image description here






                                share|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$













                                • $begingroup$
                                  The image is slightly misleading in that it suggests there's any area not covered by "magical" and "nonmagical"... :P
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – V2Blast
                                  Feb 12 at 6:52
















                                2












                                $begingroup$

                                The wording is a bit strange, but maybe this visual will help.



                                enter image description here






                                share|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$













                                • $begingroup$
                                  The image is slightly misleading in that it suggests there's any area not covered by "magical" and "nonmagical"... :P
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – V2Blast
                                  Feb 12 at 6:52














                                2












                                2








                                2





                                $begingroup$

                                The wording is a bit strange, but maybe this visual will help.



                                enter image description here






                                share|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$



                                The wording is a bit strange, but maybe this visual will help.



                                enter image description here







                                share|improve this answer












                                share|improve this answer



                                share|improve this answer










                                answered Feb 11 at 19:11









                                lightcatlightcat

                                5,72212364




                                5,72212364












                                • $begingroup$
                                  The image is slightly misleading in that it suggests there's any area not covered by "magical" and "nonmagical"... :P
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – V2Blast
                                  Feb 12 at 6:52


















                                • $begingroup$
                                  The image is slightly misleading in that it suggests there's any area not covered by "magical" and "nonmagical"... :P
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – V2Blast
                                  Feb 12 at 6:52
















                                $begingroup$
                                The image is slightly misleading in that it suggests there's any area not covered by "magical" and "nonmagical"... :P
                                $endgroup$
                                – V2Blast
                                Feb 12 at 6:52




                                $begingroup$
                                The image is slightly misleading in that it suggests there's any area not covered by "magical" and "nonmagical"... :P
                                $endgroup$
                                – V2Blast
                                Feb 12 at 6:52











                                1












                                $begingroup$

                                Werewolves can be damaged by any magical weapons of +1 or better or any silver weapons. The Lore of D&D monsters, in general, does not change that often. Here is a werewolf from 2e, in which the immunity is described more clearly:




                                In the wolf form, the werewolf can be harmed only by silver or magical weapons of +1 or better. Wounds from other weapons heal too quickly to actually injure the werewolf.







                                share|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$









                                • 1




                                  $begingroup$
                                  In 5e a weapon does not have to be +1 in order to count as a magical weapon. For example the Dagger of Blindsight is a magic weapon with no bonus: dndbeyond.com/magic-items/dagger-of-blindsight
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – illustro
                                  Feb 11 at 22:11
















                                1












                                $begingroup$

                                Werewolves can be damaged by any magical weapons of +1 or better or any silver weapons. The Lore of D&D monsters, in general, does not change that often. Here is a werewolf from 2e, in which the immunity is described more clearly:




                                In the wolf form, the werewolf can be harmed only by silver or magical weapons of +1 or better. Wounds from other weapons heal too quickly to actually injure the werewolf.







                                share|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$









                                • 1




                                  $begingroup$
                                  In 5e a weapon does not have to be +1 in order to count as a magical weapon. For example the Dagger of Blindsight is a magic weapon with no bonus: dndbeyond.com/magic-items/dagger-of-blindsight
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – illustro
                                  Feb 11 at 22:11














                                1












                                1








                                1





                                $begingroup$

                                Werewolves can be damaged by any magical weapons of +1 or better or any silver weapons. The Lore of D&D monsters, in general, does not change that often. Here is a werewolf from 2e, in which the immunity is described more clearly:




                                In the wolf form, the werewolf can be harmed only by silver or magical weapons of +1 or better. Wounds from other weapons heal too quickly to actually injure the werewolf.







                                share|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$



                                Werewolves can be damaged by any magical weapons of +1 or better or any silver weapons. The Lore of D&D monsters, in general, does not change that often. Here is a werewolf from 2e, in which the immunity is described more clearly:




                                In the wolf form, the werewolf can be harmed only by silver or magical weapons of +1 or better. Wounds from other weapons heal too quickly to actually injure the werewolf.








                                share|improve this answer












                                share|improve this answer



                                share|improve this answer










                                answered Feb 11 at 15:21









                                Tom PhillipsTom Phillips

                                972




                                972








                                • 1




                                  $begingroup$
                                  In 5e a weapon does not have to be +1 in order to count as a magical weapon. For example the Dagger of Blindsight is a magic weapon with no bonus: dndbeyond.com/magic-items/dagger-of-blindsight
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – illustro
                                  Feb 11 at 22:11














                                • 1




                                  $begingroup$
                                  In 5e a weapon does not have to be +1 in order to count as a magical weapon. For example the Dagger of Blindsight is a magic weapon with no bonus: dndbeyond.com/magic-items/dagger-of-blindsight
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – illustro
                                  Feb 11 at 22:11








                                1




                                1




                                $begingroup$
                                In 5e a weapon does not have to be +1 in order to count as a magical weapon. For example the Dagger of Blindsight is a magic weapon with no bonus: dndbeyond.com/magic-items/dagger-of-blindsight
                                $endgroup$
                                – illustro
                                Feb 11 at 22:11




                                $begingroup$
                                In 5e a weapon does not have to be +1 in order to count as a magical weapon. For example the Dagger of Blindsight is a magic weapon with no bonus: dndbeyond.com/magic-items/dagger-of-blindsight
                                $endgroup$
                                – illustro
                                Feb 11 at 22:11


















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