What's the definition of a quality?
While reading through the comprehensive rules in mtg, I came across this:
112.12. ... if an effect states a quality of [an] object (“[creature] can’t be blocked,” for example), it’s neither granting an ability nor setting a characteristic
This was the first mention of object qualities, so I wanted to know what constitutes a quality and discovered there is no definition given in the comprehensive rules, or that I missed it.
Rule 112.12 gives this example:
Example: Muraganda Petroglyphs reads, “Creatures with no abilities get +2/+2.” A Runeclaw Bear (a creature with no abilities) enchanted by an Aura that says “Enchanted creature has flying” would not get +2/+2. A Runeclaw Bear enchanted by an Aura that says “Enchanted creature is red” or “Enchanted creature can’t be blocked” would get +2/+2.
In the example, I'm not sure why "can't be blocked" is a quality and "flying" is not. (Rule 112.12 precludes qualities from being abilities, and flying is an ability, so it's not a quality). So what does this rule mean when it mentions 'quality'?
magic-the-gathering
asked yesterday
person27
1708
add a comment |
While reading through the comprehensive rules in mtg, I came across this:
112.12. ... if an effect states a quality of [an] object (“[creature] can’t be blocked,” for example), it’s neither granting an ability nor setting a characteristic
This was the first mention of object qualities, so I wanted to know what constitutes a quality and discovered there is no definition given in the comprehensive rules, or that I missed it.
Rule 112.12 gives this example:
Example: Muraganda Petroglyphs reads, “Creatures with no abilities get +2/+2.” A Runeclaw Bear (a creature with no abilities) enchanted by an Aura that says “Enchanted creature has flying” would not get +2/+2. A Runeclaw Bear enchanted by an Aura that says “Enchanted creature is red” or “Enchanted creature can’t be blocked” would get +2/+2.
In the example, I'm not sure why "can't be blocked" is a quality and "flying" is not. (Rule 112.12 precludes qualities from being abilities, and flying is an ability, so it's not a quality). So what does this rule mean when it mentions 'quality'?
magic-the-gathering
asked yesterday
person27
1708
I think it would greatly improve the question if you could edit to make it explicitly clear how you concluded that "'can't be blocked' is a quality and 'flying' is not".
– David Z
21 hours ago
@DavidZ Flying is a keyword ability. Can't be blocked is a quality; quoting myself: if an effect states a quality of an object "([creature] can't be blocked, for example)" means that can't be blocked is a quality
– person27
20 hours ago
@DavidZ If flying was a quality then per the same quote, "it's neither granting an ability nor setting a characteristic", but flying grants the creature that ability because it is a keyword ability.
– person27
20 hours ago
@DavidZ Ah, but look at my last response and you'll see that would leave me with no question. These deductions weren't clear to me until the current answer pointed out that flying was an ability, which led me to fill in the rest. So if you add an answer just explaining these deductions (since I hate self-answering unless I really need to), I'll accept it.
– person27
20 hours ago
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
– person27
20 hours ago
add a comment |
While reading through the comprehensive rules in mtg, I came across this:
112.12. ... if an effect states a quality of [an] object (“[creature] can’t be blocked,” for example), it’s neither granting an ability nor setting a characteristic
This was the first mention of object qualities, so I wanted to know what constitutes a quality and discovered there is no definition given in the comprehensive rules, or that I missed it.
Rule 112.12 gives this example:
Example: Muraganda Petroglyphs reads, “Creatures with no abilities get +2/+2.” A Runeclaw Bear (a creature with no abilities) enchanted by an Aura that says “Enchanted creature has flying” would not get +2/+2. A Runeclaw Bear enchanted by an Aura that says “Enchanted creature is red” or “Enchanted creature can’t be blocked” would get +2/+2.
In the example, I'm not sure why "can't be blocked" is a quality and "flying" is not. (Rule 112.12 precludes qualities from being abilities, and flying is an ability, so it's not a quality). So what does this rule mean when it mentions 'quality'?
magic-the-gathering
asked yesterday
person27
1708
While reading through the comprehensive rules in mtg, I came across this:
112.12. ... if an effect states a quality of [an] object (“[creature] can’t be blocked,” for example), it’s neither granting an ability nor setting a characteristic
This was the first mention of object qualities, so I wanted to know what constitutes a quality and discovered there is no definition given in the comprehensive rules, or that I missed it.
Rule 112.12 gives this example:
Example: Muraganda Petroglyphs reads, “Creatures with no abilities get +2/+2.” A Runeclaw Bear (a creature with no abilities) enchanted by an Aura that says “Enchanted creature has flying” would not get +2/+2. A Runeclaw Bear enchanted by an Aura that says “Enchanted creature is red” or “Enchanted creature can’t be blocked” would get +2/+2.
In the example, I'm not sure why "can't be blocked" is a quality and "flying" is not. (Rule 112.12 precludes qualities from being abilities, and flying is an ability, so it's not a quality). So what does this rule mean when it mentions 'quality'?
magic-the-gathering
magic-the-gathering
asked yesterday
person27
1708
asked yesterday
person27
1708
edited 20 hours ago
asked yesterday
person27
1708
asked yesterday
person27
1708
asked yesterday
person27
1708
1708
I think it would greatly improve the question if you could edit to make it explicitly clear how you concluded that "'can't be blocked' is a quality and 'flying' is not".
– David Z
21 hours ago
@DavidZ Flying is a keyword ability. Can't be blocked is a quality; quoting myself: if an effect states a quality of an object "([creature] can't be blocked, for example)" means that can't be blocked is a quality
– person27
20 hours ago
@DavidZ If flying was a quality then per the same quote, "it's neither granting an ability nor setting a characteristic", but flying grants the creature that ability because it is a keyword ability.
– person27
20 hours ago
@DavidZ Ah, but look at my last response and you'll see that would leave me with no question. These deductions weren't clear to me until the current answer pointed out that flying was an ability, which led me to fill in the rest. So if you add an answer just explaining these deductions (since I hate self-answering unless I really need to), I'll accept it.
– person27
20 hours ago
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
– person27
20 hours ago
add a comment |
I think it would greatly improve the question if you could edit to make it explicitly clear how you concluded that "'can't be blocked' is a quality and 'flying' is not".
– David Z
21 hours ago
@DavidZ Flying is a keyword ability. Can't be blocked is a quality; quoting myself: if an effect states a quality of an object "([creature] can't be blocked, for example)" means that can't be blocked is a quality
– person27
20 hours ago
@DavidZ If flying was a quality then per the same quote, "it's neither granting an ability nor setting a characteristic", but flying grants the creature that ability because it is a keyword ability.
– person27
20 hours ago
@DavidZ Ah, but look at my last response and you'll see that would leave me with no question. These deductions weren't clear to me until the current answer pointed out that flying was an ability, which led me to fill in the rest. So if you add an answer just explaining these deductions (since I hate self-answering unless I really need to), I'll accept it.
– person27
20 hours ago
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
– person27
20 hours ago
I think it would greatly improve the question if you could edit to make it explicitly clear how you concluded that "'can't be blocked' is a quality and 'flying' is not".
– David Z
21 hours ago
I think it would greatly improve the question if you could edit to make it explicitly clear how you concluded that "'can't be blocked' is a quality and 'flying' is not".
– David Z
21 hours ago
@DavidZ Flying is a keyword ability. Can't be blocked is a quality; quoting myself: if an effect states a quality of an object "([creature] can't be blocked, for example)" means that can't be blocked is a quality
– person27
20 hours ago
@DavidZ Flying is a keyword ability. Can't be blocked is a quality; quoting myself: if an effect states a quality of an object "([creature] can't be blocked, for example)" means that can't be blocked is a quality
– person27
20 hours ago
@DavidZ If flying was a quality then per the same quote, "it's neither granting an ability nor setting a characteristic", but flying grants the creature that ability because it is a keyword ability.
– person27
20 hours ago
@DavidZ If flying was a quality then per the same quote, "it's neither granting an ability nor setting a characteristic", but flying grants the creature that ability because it is a keyword ability.
– person27
20 hours ago
@DavidZ Ah, but look at my last response and you'll see that would leave me with no question. These deductions weren't clear to me until the current answer pointed out that flying was an ability, which led me to fill in the rest. So if you add an answer just explaining these deductions (since I hate self-answering unless I really need to), I'll accept it.
– person27
20 hours ago
@DavidZ Ah, but look at my last response and you'll see that would leave me with no question. These deductions weren't clear to me until the current answer pointed out that flying was an ability, which led me to fill in the rest. So if you add an answer just explaining these deductions (since I hate self-answering unless I really need to), I'll accept it.
– person27
20 hours ago
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
– person27
20 hours ago
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
– person27
20 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
Keep in mind that the purpose of rule 112.12 - the whole rule - is to determine, out of all the cases in which an effect's text says something about an object, which of those cases count as granting an ability to the object. If the text says the object "gains" or "has" something, then (unless it's a characteristic-defining ability, like "...has power equal to...") the effect is granting an ability to the object, but other cases where the text says something about the object do not count as granting it an ability.
The rule uses the phrasing
...if an effect states a quality of [an] object...
to refer to those other cases where the text simply says something about the object. For example, if an effect's text says "[object] can't be blocked", it's just saying something about [object], but it's not giving [object] an ability that prohibits it from being blocked.
This is worth calling out, in part because there used to be an ability, "unblockable", which meant that a creature with it couldn't be blocked. Back in those days, instead of saying "[creature] can't be blocked" as is done today, an effect would say "[creature] has unblockable" (or before then, "[creature] is unblockable"). Magic players who were active during that time but not so much since then may think that saying that a creature "can't be blocked" gives it the "unblockable" ability. The rule is clarifying that that's not the case.
answered 18 hours ago
David Z
6,0062333
1
I don't think anything ever said "has unblockable", everything just said "is unblockable".
– doppelgreener
10 hours ago
add a comment |
You are mixing two different things up quite a bit.
What is a quality?
You will only see "quality" get used in the Comprehensive Rules, and it gets used in context under its normal English meaning: it is some kind of attribute, characteristic, or property of a thing. Don't try to find a specific set of things about cards that is a "quality", because there isn't one; the word has no special meaning in the game and the rules are just using it in the normal English sense. For example, when the rules talk about Hexproof, they also talk about "Hexproof from white/black" as seen on the Knights of Grace and Malice:
702.11d “Hexproof from [quality]” is a variant of the hexproof ability. “Hexproof from [quality]” on a permanent means “This permanent can’t be the target of [quality] spells your opponents control or abilities your opponents control from [quality] sources.” A “hexproof from [quality]” ability is a hexproof ability.
Here they could equally write "Hexproof from _____". However they are instead using "quality" as a placeholder word that lets them easily and clearly reference whatever goes in the blank. That doesn't make "quality" be a special limited set of things in the rules though, they are just using an English word for its English meaning.
This is unlike words like "ability" and "characteristic". Those do have a specific definition in the rules (rules 112 and 109.3, respectively). There are limited sets of things that are "abilities" and "characteristics" and we can point to them and say "that is an ability according to this part of the rules" and "that is not an ability", etc.
"Quality" is not defined like these words, it is just an English term.
Muraganda Petroglyphs has nothing to do with qualities as such
In the example, I'm not sure why "can't be blocked" is a quality and "flying" is not. So what is the definition of a quality?
Flying is an ability. That ability is granted to the creature by the aura. The creature now has an ability. Therefore, Muraganda Petroglyphs will not give it +2/+2, because it is not a creature with no abilities.
"Enchanted creature can't be blocked" is not granting an ability, it is just a rules modification of how things can interact with that card. "Enchanted creature is red" is likewise granting it an ability, it is setting its color.
If you're trying to understand what is/isn't a quality in hopes of understanding Muraganda Petroglyphs, you're on a wild goose chase: instead you need to understand abilities. An ability is rules text on a card, including static keyword abilities such as flying, and things may grant creatures those abilities temporarily or permanently.
answered yesterday
doppelgreener
15.2k854116
1
@person27 No, like I said, don't look for a specific thing in game that is a quality. There is no specific set of things that is a quality. It is just an English word used in its English sense in the rules, meaning anything could be a quality. "Red" is not "a rules modification of how things can interact with that card", is it? "Mark Rosewater has personally handled this card" could be a quality, though one I doubt we'd ever see a card referencing.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
1
@person27 There is a definition: the English one. The rules only reference quality in limited senses: Hexproof from red (red is a quality), Equip legendary creature (legendary is a quality), Protection from a player (that player is a quality), search for a nonland card (nonland is a quality), etc -- and judges can clearly agree what is being referenced in each of those cases. Consider: if they used "Hexproof from ____" in the rules instead, would you be requesting a definition of what a "____" is?
– doppelgreener
yesterday
1
@person27 Quality: /ˈkwälədē/ Noun: a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something.
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@doppelgreener technically the quality for protection from player is the control over the permanent or spell
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@Andrew Let's not go down that path: we're trying to unwind that train of thought for person27. The template is "Protection from [quality]", the ability says "Protection from the chosen player". In all senses, the quality for this ability is the chosen player.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "147"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fboardgames.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f44459%2fwhats-the-definition-of-a-quality%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Keep in mind that the purpose of rule 112.12 - the whole rule - is to determine, out of all the cases in which an effect's text says something about an object, which of those cases count as granting an ability to the object. If the text says the object "gains" or "has" something, then (unless it's a characteristic-defining ability, like "...has power equal to...") the effect is granting an ability to the object, but other cases where the text says something about the object do not count as granting it an ability.
The rule uses the phrasing
...if an effect states a quality of [an] object...
to refer to those other cases where the text simply says something about the object. For example, if an effect's text says "[object] can't be blocked", it's just saying something about [object], but it's not giving [object] an ability that prohibits it from being blocked.
This is worth calling out, in part because there used to be an ability, "unblockable", which meant that a creature with it couldn't be blocked. Back in those days, instead of saying "[creature] can't be blocked" as is done today, an effect would say "[creature] has unblockable" (or before then, "[creature] is unblockable"). Magic players who were active during that time but not so much since then may think that saying that a creature "can't be blocked" gives it the "unblockable" ability. The rule is clarifying that that's not the case.
answered 18 hours ago
David Z
6,0062333
1
I don't think anything ever said "has unblockable", everything just said "is unblockable".
– doppelgreener
10 hours ago
add a comment |
Keep in mind that the purpose of rule 112.12 - the whole rule - is to determine, out of all the cases in which an effect's text says something about an object, which of those cases count as granting an ability to the object. If the text says the object "gains" or "has" something, then (unless it's a characteristic-defining ability, like "...has power equal to...") the effect is granting an ability to the object, but other cases where the text says something about the object do not count as granting it an ability.
The rule uses the phrasing
...if an effect states a quality of [an] object...
to refer to those other cases where the text simply says something about the object. For example, if an effect's text says "[object] can't be blocked", it's just saying something about [object], but it's not giving [object] an ability that prohibits it from being blocked.
This is worth calling out, in part because there used to be an ability, "unblockable", which meant that a creature with it couldn't be blocked. Back in those days, instead of saying "[creature] can't be blocked" as is done today, an effect would say "[creature] has unblockable" (or before then, "[creature] is unblockable"). Magic players who were active during that time but not so much since then may think that saying that a creature "can't be blocked" gives it the "unblockable" ability. The rule is clarifying that that's not the case.
answered 18 hours ago
David Z
6,0062333
1
I don't think anything ever said "has unblockable", everything just said "is unblockable".
– doppelgreener
10 hours ago
add a comment |
Keep in mind that the purpose of rule 112.12 - the whole rule - is to determine, out of all the cases in which an effect's text says something about an object, which of those cases count as granting an ability to the object. If the text says the object "gains" or "has" something, then (unless it's a characteristic-defining ability, like "...has power equal to...") the effect is granting an ability to the object, but other cases where the text says something about the object do not count as granting it an ability.
The rule uses the phrasing
...if an effect states a quality of [an] object...
to refer to those other cases where the text simply says something about the object. For example, if an effect's text says "[object] can't be blocked", it's just saying something about [object], but it's not giving [object] an ability that prohibits it from being blocked.
This is worth calling out, in part because there used to be an ability, "unblockable", which meant that a creature with it couldn't be blocked. Back in those days, instead of saying "[creature] can't be blocked" as is done today, an effect would say "[creature] has unblockable" (or before then, "[creature] is unblockable"). Magic players who were active during that time but not so much since then may think that saying that a creature "can't be blocked" gives it the "unblockable" ability. The rule is clarifying that that's not the case.
answered 18 hours ago
David Z
6,0062333
Keep in mind that the purpose of rule 112.12 - the whole rule - is to determine, out of all the cases in which an effect's text says something about an object, which of those cases count as granting an ability to the object. If the text says the object "gains" or "has" something, then (unless it's a characteristic-defining ability, like "...has power equal to...") the effect is granting an ability to the object, but other cases where the text says something about the object do not count as granting it an ability.
The rule uses the phrasing
...if an effect states a quality of [an] object...
to refer to those other cases where the text simply says something about the object. For example, if an effect's text says "[object] can't be blocked", it's just saying something about [object], but it's not giving [object] an ability that prohibits it from being blocked.
This is worth calling out, in part because there used to be an ability, "unblockable", which meant that a creature with it couldn't be blocked. Back in those days, instead of saying "[creature] can't be blocked" as is done today, an effect would say "[creature] has unblockable" (or before then, "[creature] is unblockable"). Magic players who were active during that time but not so much since then may think that saying that a creature "can't be blocked" gives it the "unblockable" ability. The rule is clarifying that that's not the case.
answered 18 hours ago
David Z
6,0062333
answered 18 hours ago
David Z
6,0062333
answered 18 hours ago
David Z
6,0062333
answered 18 hours ago
David Z
6,0062333
6,0062333
1
I don't think anything ever said "has unblockable", everything just said "is unblockable".
– doppelgreener
10 hours ago
add a comment |
1
I don't think anything ever said "has unblockable", everything just said "is unblockable".
– doppelgreener
10 hours ago
1
1
I don't think anything ever said "has unblockable", everything just said "is unblockable".
– doppelgreener
10 hours ago
I don't think anything ever said "has unblockable", everything just said "is unblockable".
– doppelgreener
10 hours ago
add a comment |
You are mixing two different things up quite a bit.
What is a quality?
You will only see "quality" get used in the Comprehensive Rules, and it gets used in context under its normal English meaning: it is some kind of attribute, characteristic, or property of a thing. Don't try to find a specific set of things about cards that is a "quality", because there isn't one; the word has no special meaning in the game and the rules are just using it in the normal English sense. For example, when the rules talk about Hexproof, they also talk about "Hexproof from white/black" as seen on the Knights of Grace and Malice:
702.11d “Hexproof from [quality]” is a variant of the hexproof ability. “Hexproof from [quality]” on a permanent means “This permanent can’t be the target of [quality] spells your opponents control or abilities your opponents control from [quality] sources.” A “hexproof from [quality]” ability is a hexproof ability.
Here they could equally write "Hexproof from _____". However they are instead using "quality" as a placeholder word that lets them easily and clearly reference whatever goes in the blank. That doesn't make "quality" be a special limited set of things in the rules though, they are just using an English word for its English meaning.
This is unlike words like "ability" and "characteristic". Those do have a specific definition in the rules (rules 112 and 109.3, respectively). There are limited sets of things that are "abilities" and "characteristics" and we can point to them and say "that is an ability according to this part of the rules" and "that is not an ability", etc.
"Quality" is not defined like these words, it is just an English term.
Muraganda Petroglyphs has nothing to do with qualities as such
In the example, I'm not sure why "can't be blocked" is a quality and "flying" is not. So what is the definition of a quality?
Flying is an ability. That ability is granted to the creature by the aura. The creature now has an ability. Therefore, Muraganda Petroglyphs will not give it +2/+2, because it is not a creature with no abilities.
"Enchanted creature can't be blocked" is not granting an ability, it is just a rules modification of how things can interact with that card. "Enchanted creature is red" is likewise granting it an ability, it is setting its color.
If you're trying to understand what is/isn't a quality in hopes of understanding Muraganda Petroglyphs, you're on a wild goose chase: instead you need to understand abilities. An ability is rules text on a card, including static keyword abilities such as flying, and things may grant creatures those abilities temporarily or permanently.
answered yesterday
doppelgreener
15.2k854116
1
@person27 No, like I said, don't look for a specific thing in game that is a quality. There is no specific set of things that is a quality. It is just an English word used in its English sense in the rules, meaning anything could be a quality. "Red" is not "a rules modification of how things can interact with that card", is it? "Mark Rosewater has personally handled this card" could be a quality, though one I doubt we'd ever see a card referencing.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
1
@person27 There is a definition: the English one. The rules only reference quality in limited senses: Hexproof from red (red is a quality), Equip legendary creature (legendary is a quality), Protection from a player (that player is a quality), search for a nonland card (nonland is a quality), etc -- and judges can clearly agree what is being referenced in each of those cases. Consider: if they used "Hexproof from ____" in the rules instead, would you be requesting a definition of what a "____" is?
– doppelgreener
yesterday
1
@person27 Quality: /ˈkwälədē/ Noun: a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something.
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@doppelgreener technically the quality for protection from player is the control over the permanent or spell
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@Andrew Let's not go down that path: we're trying to unwind that train of thought for person27. The template is "Protection from [quality]", the ability says "Protection from the chosen player". In all senses, the quality for this ability is the chosen player.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
You are mixing two different things up quite a bit.
What is a quality?
You will only see "quality" get used in the Comprehensive Rules, and it gets used in context under its normal English meaning: it is some kind of attribute, characteristic, or property of a thing. Don't try to find a specific set of things about cards that is a "quality", because there isn't one; the word has no special meaning in the game and the rules are just using it in the normal English sense. For example, when the rules talk about Hexproof, they also talk about "Hexproof from white/black" as seen on the Knights of Grace and Malice:
702.11d “Hexproof from [quality]” is a variant of the hexproof ability. “Hexproof from [quality]” on a permanent means “This permanent can’t be the target of [quality] spells your opponents control or abilities your opponents control from [quality] sources.” A “hexproof from [quality]” ability is a hexproof ability.
Here they could equally write "Hexproof from _____". However they are instead using "quality" as a placeholder word that lets them easily and clearly reference whatever goes in the blank. That doesn't make "quality" be a special limited set of things in the rules though, they are just using an English word for its English meaning.
This is unlike words like "ability" and "characteristic". Those do have a specific definition in the rules (rules 112 and 109.3, respectively). There are limited sets of things that are "abilities" and "characteristics" and we can point to them and say "that is an ability according to this part of the rules" and "that is not an ability", etc.
"Quality" is not defined like these words, it is just an English term.
Muraganda Petroglyphs has nothing to do with qualities as such
In the example, I'm not sure why "can't be blocked" is a quality and "flying" is not. So what is the definition of a quality?
Flying is an ability. That ability is granted to the creature by the aura. The creature now has an ability. Therefore, Muraganda Petroglyphs will not give it +2/+2, because it is not a creature with no abilities.
"Enchanted creature can't be blocked" is not granting an ability, it is just a rules modification of how things can interact with that card. "Enchanted creature is red" is likewise granting it an ability, it is setting its color.
If you're trying to understand what is/isn't a quality in hopes of understanding Muraganda Petroglyphs, you're on a wild goose chase: instead you need to understand abilities. An ability is rules text on a card, including static keyword abilities such as flying, and things may grant creatures those abilities temporarily or permanently.
answered yesterday
doppelgreener
15.2k854116
1
@person27 No, like I said, don't look for a specific thing in game that is a quality. There is no specific set of things that is a quality. It is just an English word used in its English sense in the rules, meaning anything could be a quality. "Red" is not "a rules modification of how things can interact with that card", is it? "Mark Rosewater has personally handled this card" could be a quality, though one I doubt we'd ever see a card referencing.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
1
@person27 There is a definition: the English one. The rules only reference quality in limited senses: Hexproof from red (red is a quality), Equip legendary creature (legendary is a quality), Protection from a player (that player is a quality), search for a nonland card (nonland is a quality), etc -- and judges can clearly agree what is being referenced in each of those cases. Consider: if they used "Hexproof from ____" in the rules instead, would you be requesting a definition of what a "____" is?
– doppelgreener
yesterday
1
@person27 Quality: /ˈkwälədē/ Noun: a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something.
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@doppelgreener technically the quality for protection from player is the control over the permanent or spell
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@Andrew Let's not go down that path: we're trying to unwind that train of thought for person27. The template is "Protection from [quality]", the ability says "Protection from the chosen player". In all senses, the quality for this ability is the chosen player.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
You are mixing two different things up quite a bit.
What is a quality?
You will only see "quality" get used in the Comprehensive Rules, and it gets used in context under its normal English meaning: it is some kind of attribute, characteristic, or property of a thing. Don't try to find a specific set of things about cards that is a "quality", because there isn't one; the word has no special meaning in the game and the rules are just using it in the normal English sense. For example, when the rules talk about Hexproof, they also talk about "Hexproof from white/black" as seen on the Knights of Grace and Malice:
702.11d “Hexproof from [quality]” is a variant of the hexproof ability. “Hexproof from [quality]” on a permanent means “This permanent can’t be the target of [quality] spells your opponents control or abilities your opponents control from [quality] sources.” A “hexproof from [quality]” ability is a hexproof ability.
Here they could equally write "Hexproof from _____". However they are instead using "quality" as a placeholder word that lets them easily and clearly reference whatever goes in the blank. That doesn't make "quality" be a special limited set of things in the rules though, they are just using an English word for its English meaning.
This is unlike words like "ability" and "characteristic". Those do have a specific definition in the rules (rules 112 and 109.3, respectively). There are limited sets of things that are "abilities" and "characteristics" and we can point to them and say "that is an ability according to this part of the rules" and "that is not an ability", etc.
"Quality" is not defined like these words, it is just an English term.
Muraganda Petroglyphs has nothing to do with qualities as such
In the example, I'm not sure why "can't be blocked" is a quality and "flying" is not. So what is the definition of a quality?
Flying is an ability. That ability is granted to the creature by the aura. The creature now has an ability. Therefore, Muraganda Petroglyphs will not give it +2/+2, because it is not a creature with no abilities.
"Enchanted creature can't be blocked" is not granting an ability, it is just a rules modification of how things can interact with that card. "Enchanted creature is red" is likewise granting it an ability, it is setting its color.
If you're trying to understand what is/isn't a quality in hopes of understanding Muraganda Petroglyphs, you're on a wild goose chase: instead you need to understand abilities. An ability is rules text on a card, including static keyword abilities such as flying, and things may grant creatures those abilities temporarily or permanently.
answered yesterday
doppelgreener
15.2k854116
You are mixing two different things up quite a bit.
What is a quality?
You will only see "quality" get used in the Comprehensive Rules, and it gets used in context under its normal English meaning: it is some kind of attribute, characteristic, or property of a thing. Don't try to find a specific set of things about cards that is a "quality", because there isn't one; the word has no special meaning in the game and the rules are just using it in the normal English sense. For example, when the rules talk about Hexproof, they also talk about "Hexproof from white/black" as seen on the Knights of Grace and Malice:
702.11d “Hexproof from [quality]” is a variant of the hexproof ability. “Hexproof from [quality]” on a permanent means “This permanent can’t be the target of [quality] spells your opponents control or abilities your opponents control from [quality] sources.” A “hexproof from [quality]” ability is a hexproof ability.
Here they could equally write "Hexproof from _____". However they are instead using "quality" as a placeholder word that lets them easily and clearly reference whatever goes in the blank. That doesn't make "quality" be a special limited set of things in the rules though, they are just using an English word for its English meaning.
This is unlike words like "ability" and "characteristic". Those do have a specific definition in the rules (rules 112 and 109.3, respectively). There are limited sets of things that are "abilities" and "characteristics" and we can point to them and say "that is an ability according to this part of the rules" and "that is not an ability", etc.
"Quality" is not defined like these words, it is just an English term.
Muraganda Petroglyphs has nothing to do with qualities as such
In the example, I'm not sure why "can't be blocked" is a quality and "flying" is not. So what is the definition of a quality?
Flying is an ability. That ability is granted to the creature by the aura. The creature now has an ability. Therefore, Muraganda Petroglyphs will not give it +2/+2, because it is not a creature with no abilities.
"Enchanted creature can't be blocked" is not granting an ability, it is just a rules modification of how things can interact with that card. "Enchanted creature is red" is likewise granting it an ability, it is setting its color.
If you're trying to understand what is/isn't a quality in hopes of understanding Muraganda Petroglyphs, you're on a wild goose chase: instead you need to understand abilities. An ability is rules text on a card, including static keyword abilities such as flying, and things may grant creatures those abilities temporarily or permanently.
answered yesterday
doppelgreener
15.2k854116
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
doppelgreener
15.2k854116
answered yesterday
doppelgreener
15.2k854116
answered yesterday
doppelgreener
15.2k854116
15.2k854116
1
@person27 No, like I said, don't look for a specific thing in game that is a quality. There is no specific set of things that is a quality. It is just an English word used in its English sense in the rules, meaning anything could be a quality. "Red" is not "a rules modification of how things can interact with that card", is it? "Mark Rosewater has personally handled this card" could be a quality, though one I doubt we'd ever see a card referencing.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
1
@person27 There is a definition: the English one. The rules only reference quality in limited senses: Hexproof from red (red is a quality), Equip legendary creature (legendary is a quality), Protection from a player (that player is a quality), search for a nonland card (nonland is a quality), etc -- and judges can clearly agree what is being referenced in each of those cases. Consider: if they used "Hexproof from ____" in the rules instead, would you be requesting a definition of what a "____" is?
– doppelgreener
yesterday
1
@person27 Quality: /ˈkwälədē/ Noun: a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something.
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@doppelgreener technically the quality for protection from player is the control over the permanent or spell
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@Andrew Let's not go down that path: we're trying to unwind that train of thought for person27. The template is "Protection from [quality]", the ability says "Protection from the chosen player". In all senses, the quality for this ability is the chosen player.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
1
@person27 No, like I said, don't look for a specific thing in game that is a quality. There is no specific set of things that is a quality. It is just an English word used in its English sense in the rules, meaning anything could be a quality. "Red" is not "a rules modification of how things can interact with that card", is it? "Mark Rosewater has personally handled this card" could be a quality, though one I doubt we'd ever see a card referencing.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
1
@person27 There is a definition: the English one. The rules only reference quality in limited senses: Hexproof from red (red is a quality), Equip legendary creature (legendary is a quality), Protection from a player (that player is a quality), search for a nonland card (nonland is a quality), etc -- and judges can clearly agree what is being referenced in each of those cases. Consider: if they used "Hexproof from ____" in the rules instead, would you be requesting a definition of what a "____" is?
– doppelgreener
yesterday
1
@person27 Quality: /ˈkwälədē/ Noun: a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something.
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@doppelgreener technically the quality for protection from player is the control over the permanent or spell
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@Andrew Let's not go down that path: we're trying to unwind that train of thought for person27. The template is "Protection from [quality]", the ability says "Protection from the chosen player". In all senses, the quality for this ability is the chosen player.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
1
1
@person27 No, like I said, don't look for a specific thing in game that is a quality. There is no specific set of things that is a quality. It is just an English word used in its English sense in the rules, meaning anything could be a quality. "Red" is not "a rules modification of how things can interact with that card", is it? "Mark Rosewater has personally handled this card" could be a quality, though one I doubt we'd ever see a card referencing.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
@person27 No, like I said, don't look for a specific thing in game that is a quality. There is no specific set of things that is a quality. It is just an English word used in its English sense in the rules, meaning anything could be a quality. "Red" is not "a rules modification of how things can interact with that card", is it? "Mark Rosewater has personally handled this card" could be a quality, though one I doubt we'd ever see a card referencing.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
1
1
@person27 There is a definition: the English one. The rules only reference quality in limited senses: Hexproof from red (red is a quality), Equip legendary creature (legendary is a quality), Protection from a player (that player is a quality), search for a nonland card (nonland is a quality), etc -- and judges can clearly agree what is being referenced in each of those cases. Consider: if they used "Hexproof from ____" in the rules instead, would you be requesting a definition of what a "____" is?
– doppelgreener
yesterday
@person27 There is a definition: the English one. The rules only reference quality in limited senses: Hexproof from red (red is a quality), Equip legendary creature (legendary is a quality), Protection from a player (that player is a quality), search for a nonland card (nonland is a quality), etc -- and judges can clearly agree what is being referenced in each of those cases. Consider: if they used "Hexproof from ____" in the rules instead, would you be requesting a definition of what a "____" is?
– doppelgreener
yesterday
1
1
@person27 Quality: /ˈkwälədē/ Noun: a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something.
– Andrew
yesterday
@person27 Quality: /ˈkwälədē/ Noun: a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something.
– Andrew
yesterday
1
1
@doppelgreener technically the quality for protection from player is the control over the permanent or spell
– Andrew
yesterday
@doppelgreener technically the quality for protection from player is the control over the permanent or spell
– Andrew
yesterday
1
1
@Andrew Let's not go down that path: we're trying to unwind that train of thought for person27. The template is "Protection from [quality]", the ability says "Protection from the chosen player". In all senses, the quality for this ability is the chosen player.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
@Andrew Let's not go down that path: we're trying to unwind that train of thought for person27. The template is "Protection from [quality]", the ability says "Protection from the chosen player". In all senses, the quality for this ability is the chosen player.
– doppelgreener
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
Thanks for contributing an answer to Board & Card Games Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fboardgames.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f44459%2fwhats-the-definition-of-a-quality%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
I think it would greatly improve the question if you could edit to make it explicitly clear how you concluded that "'can't be blocked' is a quality and 'flying' is not".
– David Z
21 hours ago
@DavidZ Flying is a keyword ability. Can't be blocked is a quality; quoting myself: if an effect states a quality of an object "([creature] can't be blocked, for example)" means that can't be blocked is a quality
– person27
20 hours ago
@DavidZ If flying was a quality then per the same quote, "it's neither granting an ability nor setting a characteristic", but flying grants the creature that ability because it is a keyword ability.
– person27
20 hours ago
@DavidZ Ah, but look at my last response and you'll see that would leave me with no question. These deductions weren't clear to me until the current answer pointed out that flying was an ability, which led me to fill in the rest. So if you add an answer just explaining these deductions (since I hate self-answering unless I really need to), I'll accept it.
– person27
20 hours ago
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
– person27
20 hours ago