Touch-move when move is illegal but opponent's piece can be captured by another piece












11















This is the scenario: I pick up my Knight to capture my opponent's Bishop (touching the Bishop). I then realise my Knight was pinned to my King in the first place, so moving it would be illegal. However, I have already touched my opponent's Bishop with my Knight. Since I have touched my opponent's Bishop, would I have to capture the Bishop with another piece of mine (in this case my Queen can legally capture the Bishop instead), or am I allowed to just move any other piece entirely? Reference in FIDE Rules is Article 4.3.3 but it still seems it doesn't explain this scenario well enough.










share|improve this question





























    11















    This is the scenario: I pick up my Knight to capture my opponent's Bishop (touching the Bishop). I then realise my Knight was pinned to my King in the first place, so moving it would be illegal. However, I have already touched my opponent's Bishop with my Knight. Since I have touched my opponent's Bishop, would I have to capture the Bishop with another piece of mine (in this case my Queen can legally capture the Bishop instead), or am I allowed to just move any other piece entirely? Reference in FIDE Rules is Article 4.3.3 but it still seems it doesn't explain this scenario well enough.










    share|improve this question



























      11












      11








      11


      0






      This is the scenario: I pick up my Knight to capture my opponent's Bishop (touching the Bishop). I then realise my Knight was pinned to my King in the first place, so moving it would be illegal. However, I have already touched my opponent's Bishop with my Knight. Since I have touched my opponent's Bishop, would I have to capture the Bishop with another piece of mine (in this case my Queen can legally capture the Bishop instead), or am I allowed to just move any other piece entirely? Reference in FIDE Rules is Article 4.3.3 but it still seems it doesn't explain this scenario well enough.










      share|improve this question
















      This is the scenario: I pick up my Knight to capture my opponent's Bishop (touching the Bishop). I then realise my Knight was pinned to my King in the first place, so moving it would be illegal. However, I have already touched my opponent's Bishop with my Knight. Since I have touched my opponent's Bishop, would I have to capture the Bishop with another piece of mine (in this case my Queen can legally capture the Bishop instead), or am I allowed to just move any other piece entirely? Reference in FIDE Rules is Article 4.3.3 but it still seems it doesn't explain this scenario well enough.







      rules






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited Apr 6 at 18:17









      Mark Amery

      1236




      1236










      asked Feb 15 at 16:03









      Goriola AdioGoriola Adio

      584




      584






















          2 Answers
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          15














          Article 4.3.2 clarifies this -




          4.3 Except as provided in Article 4.2 [j'adoube], if the player having the move touches on the chessboard,with the intention of moving or capturing:



          4.3.2 one or more of his opponent’s pieces, he must capture the first piece touched that can be captured




          In the scenario you describe you touch your knight and your opponent's bishop with the intention of capturing the bishop with your knight. Moving the knight is illegal hence you may not capture the bishop with the knight. However capturing the bishop with some other piece, your queen, is legal. Therefore you must capture the bishop with that piece.






          share|improve this answer



















          • 1





            In the lawbook I found, there is a section right after this which I think is much clearer. "[If a player deliberately touches...] one piece of each colour, he must capture the opponent’s piece with his piece or, if this is illegal, move or capture the first piece touched which can be moved or captured."

            – amalloy
            Feb 15 at 22:59








          • 1





            @amalloy The reference you have given is for the FIDE Laws of Chess before 1st July 2014. Since then they have changed 3 times. The current version, valid from 1st January 2018, is here - fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=208&view=article. That is the version the OP references and it is the one that should be used for current competitions.

            – Brian Towers
            Feb 15 at 23:35






          • 1





            Indeed. Then from that reference, it seems law 4.3.3 is the relevant one: 4.3.2 appears intended to apply to when you have only touched an opponent's piece, touching no piece of your own.

            – amalloy
            Feb 16 at 0:16











          • And what happens if there's nothing that could capture the bishop?

            – Alexander
            Feb 16 at 3:09






          • 1





            I believe that the conclusion here is correct but that the reasoning is faulty. It looks to me like the scenario described in the question is governed by article 4.3.3, not article 4.3.2, as I argue in my answer below; article 4.3.2 only applies in the scenario where the player has only touched his opponent's pieces, and none of his own color, and is therefore not relevant here. @amalloy got this right, and telling him to "brush up on his reading skills" in your comment above was unwarranted.

            – Mark Amery
            Apr 6 at 17:25





















          2














          The relevant sections from https://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=208&view=article:




          4.2.1

          Only the player having the move may adjust one or more pieces ...



          4.2.2

          Any other physical contact with a piece, except for clearly accidental contact, shall be considered to be intent.



          4.3

          Except as provided in Article 4.2, if the player having the move touches on the chessboard,with the intention of moving or capturing:



          4.3.1

          one or more of his own pieces, he must move the first piece touched that can be moved



          4.3.2

          one or more of his opponent’s pieces, he must capture the first piece touched that can be captured



          4.3.3

          one or more pieces of each colour, he must capture the first touched opponent’s piece with his first touched piece or, if this is illegal, move or capture the first piece touched that can be moved or captured. If it is unclear whether the player’s own piece or his opponent’s was touched first, the player’s own piece shall be considered to have been touched before his opponent’s.




          Article 4.2.2 establishes that any non-accidental contact shall be considered intent, so touching the opponent's bishop with your knight establishes intent to capture. At that stage, you've touched both your knight and your opponent's bishop - that is, you've touched "one or more pieces of each colour" - so article 4.3.3 dictates what happens next.



          Let's break down article 4.3.3, then. It first says you must:




          capture the first touched opponent’s piece with his first touched piece




          (nope, you can't do that - it's an illegal move)




          or, if this is illegal




          (it is)




          move or capture the first piece touched that can be moved or captured




          Since your knight cannot be moved, the "first piece touched that can be moved or captured" is your opponent's bishop. Therefore you must capture it.






          share|improve this answer
























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            2 Answers
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            2 Answers
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            15














            Article 4.3.2 clarifies this -




            4.3 Except as provided in Article 4.2 [j'adoube], if the player having the move touches on the chessboard,with the intention of moving or capturing:



            4.3.2 one or more of his opponent’s pieces, he must capture the first piece touched that can be captured




            In the scenario you describe you touch your knight and your opponent's bishop with the intention of capturing the bishop with your knight. Moving the knight is illegal hence you may not capture the bishop with the knight. However capturing the bishop with some other piece, your queen, is legal. Therefore you must capture the bishop with that piece.






            share|improve this answer



















            • 1





              In the lawbook I found, there is a section right after this which I think is much clearer. "[If a player deliberately touches...] one piece of each colour, he must capture the opponent’s piece with his piece or, if this is illegal, move or capture the first piece touched which can be moved or captured."

              – amalloy
              Feb 15 at 22:59








            • 1





              @amalloy The reference you have given is for the FIDE Laws of Chess before 1st July 2014. Since then they have changed 3 times. The current version, valid from 1st January 2018, is here - fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=208&view=article. That is the version the OP references and it is the one that should be used for current competitions.

              – Brian Towers
              Feb 15 at 23:35






            • 1





              Indeed. Then from that reference, it seems law 4.3.3 is the relevant one: 4.3.2 appears intended to apply to when you have only touched an opponent's piece, touching no piece of your own.

              – amalloy
              Feb 16 at 0:16











            • And what happens if there's nothing that could capture the bishop?

              – Alexander
              Feb 16 at 3:09






            • 1





              I believe that the conclusion here is correct but that the reasoning is faulty. It looks to me like the scenario described in the question is governed by article 4.3.3, not article 4.3.2, as I argue in my answer below; article 4.3.2 only applies in the scenario where the player has only touched his opponent's pieces, and none of his own color, and is therefore not relevant here. @amalloy got this right, and telling him to "brush up on his reading skills" in your comment above was unwarranted.

              – Mark Amery
              Apr 6 at 17:25


















            15














            Article 4.3.2 clarifies this -




            4.3 Except as provided in Article 4.2 [j'adoube], if the player having the move touches on the chessboard,with the intention of moving or capturing:



            4.3.2 one or more of his opponent’s pieces, he must capture the first piece touched that can be captured




            In the scenario you describe you touch your knight and your opponent's bishop with the intention of capturing the bishop with your knight. Moving the knight is illegal hence you may not capture the bishop with the knight. However capturing the bishop with some other piece, your queen, is legal. Therefore you must capture the bishop with that piece.






            share|improve this answer



















            • 1





              In the lawbook I found, there is a section right after this which I think is much clearer. "[If a player deliberately touches...] one piece of each colour, he must capture the opponent’s piece with his piece or, if this is illegal, move or capture the first piece touched which can be moved or captured."

              – amalloy
              Feb 15 at 22:59








            • 1





              @amalloy The reference you have given is for the FIDE Laws of Chess before 1st July 2014. Since then they have changed 3 times. The current version, valid from 1st January 2018, is here - fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=208&view=article. That is the version the OP references and it is the one that should be used for current competitions.

              – Brian Towers
              Feb 15 at 23:35






            • 1





              Indeed. Then from that reference, it seems law 4.3.3 is the relevant one: 4.3.2 appears intended to apply to when you have only touched an opponent's piece, touching no piece of your own.

              – amalloy
              Feb 16 at 0:16











            • And what happens if there's nothing that could capture the bishop?

              – Alexander
              Feb 16 at 3:09






            • 1





              I believe that the conclusion here is correct but that the reasoning is faulty. It looks to me like the scenario described in the question is governed by article 4.3.3, not article 4.3.2, as I argue in my answer below; article 4.3.2 only applies in the scenario where the player has only touched his opponent's pieces, and none of his own color, and is therefore not relevant here. @amalloy got this right, and telling him to "brush up on his reading skills" in your comment above was unwarranted.

              – Mark Amery
              Apr 6 at 17:25
















            15












            15








            15







            Article 4.3.2 clarifies this -




            4.3 Except as provided in Article 4.2 [j'adoube], if the player having the move touches on the chessboard,with the intention of moving or capturing:



            4.3.2 one or more of his opponent’s pieces, he must capture the first piece touched that can be captured




            In the scenario you describe you touch your knight and your opponent's bishop with the intention of capturing the bishop with your knight. Moving the knight is illegal hence you may not capture the bishop with the knight. However capturing the bishop with some other piece, your queen, is legal. Therefore you must capture the bishop with that piece.






            share|improve this answer













            Article 4.3.2 clarifies this -




            4.3 Except as provided in Article 4.2 [j'adoube], if the player having the move touches on the chessboard,with the intention of moving or capturing:



            4.3.2 one or more of his opponent’s pieces, he must capture the first piece touched that can be captured




            In the scenario you describe you touch your knight and your opponent's bishop with the intention of capturing the bishop with your knight. Moving the knight is illegal hence you may not capture the bishop with the knight. However capturing the bishop with some other piece, your queen, is legal. Therefore you must capture the bishop with that piece.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Feb 15 at 16:21









            Brian TowersBrian Towers

            17k33173




            17k33173








            • 1





              In the lawbook I found, there is a section right after this which I think is much clearer. "[If a player deliberately touches...] one piece of each colour, he must capture the opponent’s piece with his piece or, if this is illegal, move or capture the first piece touched which can be moved or captured."

              – amalloy
              Feb 15 at 22:59








            • 1





              @amalloy The reference you have given is for the FIDE Laws of Chess before 1st July 2014. Since then they have changed 3 times. The current version, valid from 1st January 2018, is here - fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=208&view=article. That is the version the OP references and it is the one that should be used for current competitions.

              – Brian Towers
              Feb 15 at 23:35






            • 1





              Indeed. Then from that reference, it seems law 4.3.3 is the relevant one: 4.3.2 appears intended to apply to when you have only touched an opponent's piece, touching no piece of your own.

              – amalloy
              Feb 16 at 0:16











            • And what happens if there's nothing that could capture the bishop?

              – Alexander
              Feb 16 at 3:09






            • 1





              I believe that the conclusion here is correct but that the reasoning is faulty. It looks to me like the scenario described in the question is governed by article 4.3.3, not article 4.3.2, as I argue in my answer below; article 4.3.2 only applies in the scenario where the player has only touched his opponent's pieces, and none of his own color, and is therefore not relevant here. @amalloy got this right, and telling him to "brush up on his reading skills" in your comment above was unwarranted.

              – Mark Amery
              Apr 6 at 17:25
















            • 1





              In the lawbook I found, there is a section right after this which I think is much clearer. "[If a player deliberately touches...] one piece of each colour, he must capture the opponent’s piece with his piece or, if this is illegal, move or capture the first piece touched which can be moved or captured."

              – amalloy
              Feb 15 at 22:59








            • 1





              @amalloy The reference you have given is for the FIDE Laws of Chess before 1st July 2014. Since then they have changed 3 times. The current version, valid from 1st January 2018, is here - fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=208&view=article. That is the version the OP references and it is the one that should be used for current competitions.

              – Brian Towers
              Feb 15 at 23:35






            • 1





              Indeed. Then from that reference, it seems law 4.3.3 is the relevant one: 4.3.2 appears intended to apply to when you have only touched an opponent's piece, touching no piece of your own.

              – amalloy
              Feb 16 at 0:16











            • And what happens if there's nothing that could capture the bishop?

              – Alexander
              Feb 16 at 3:09






            • 1





              I believe that the conclusion here is correct but that the reasoning is faulty. It looks to me like the scenario described in the question is governed by article 4.3.3, not article 4.3.2, as I argue in my answer below; article 4.3.2 only applies in the scenario where the player has only touched his opponent's pieces, and none of his own color, and is therefore not relevant here. @amalloy got this right, and telling him to "brush up on his reading skills" in your comment above was unwarranted.

              – Mark Amery
              Apr 6 at 17:25










            1




            1





            In the lawbook I found, there is a section right after this which I think is much clearer. "[If a player deliberately touches...] one piece of each colour, he must capture the opponent’s piece with his piece or, if this is illegal, move or capture the first piece touched which can be moved or captured."

            – amalloy
            Feb 15 at 22:59







            In the lawbook I found, there is a section right after this which I think is much clearer. "[If a player deliberately touches...] one piece of each colour, he must capture the opponent’s piece with his piece or, if this is illegal, move or capture the first piece touched which can be moved or captured."

            – amalloy
            Feb 15 at 22:59






            1




            1





            @amalloy The reference you have given is for the FIDE Laws of Chess before 1st July 2014. Since then they have changed 3 times. The current version, valid from 1st January 2018, is here - fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=208&view=article. That is the version the OP references and it is the one that should be used for current competitions.

            – Brian Towers
            Feb 15 at 23:35





            @amalloy The reference you have given is for the FIDE Laws of Chess before 1st July 2014. Since then they have changed 3 times. The current version, valid from 1st January 2018, is here - fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=208&view=article. That is the version the OP references and it is the one that should be used for current competitions.

            – Brian Towers
            Feb 15 at 23:35




            1




            1





            Indeed. Then from that reference, it seems law 4.3.3 is the relevant one: 4.3.2 appears intended to apply to when you have only touched an opponent's piece, touching no piece of your own.

            – amalloy
            Feb 16 at 0:16





            Indeed. Then from that reference, it seems law 4.3.3 is the relevant one: 4.3.2 appears intended to apply to when you have only touched an opponent's piece, touching no piece of your own.

            – amalloy
            Feb 16 at 0:16













            And what happens if there's nothing that could capture the bishop?

            – Alexander
            Feb 16 at 3:09





            And what happens if there's nothing that could capture the bishop?

            – Alexander
            Feb 16 at 3:09




            1




            1





            I believe that the conclusion here is correct but that the reasoning is faulty. It looks to me like the scenario described in the question is governed by article 4.3.3, not article 4.3.2, as I argue in my answer below; article 4.3.2 only applies in the scenario where the player has only touched his opponent's pieces, and none of his own color, and is therefore not relevant here. @amalloy got this right, and telling him to "brush up on his reading skills" in your comment above was unwarranted.

            – Mark Amery
            Apr 6 at 17:25







            I believe that the conclusion here is correct but that the reasoning is faulty. It looks to me like the scenario described in the question is governed by article 4.3.3, not article 4.3.2, as I argue in my answer below; article 4.3.2 only applies in the scenario where the player has only touched his opponent's pieces, and none of his own color, and is therefore not relevant here. @amalloy got this right, and telling him to "brush up on his reading skills" in your comment above was unwarranted.

            – Mark Amery
            Apr 6 at 17:25













            2














            The relevant sections from https://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=208&view=article:




            4.2.1

            Only the player having the move may adjust one or more pieces ...



            4.2.2

            Any other physical contact with a piece, except for clearly accidental contact, shall be considered to be intent.



            4.3

            Except as provided in Article 4.2, if the player having the move touches on the chessboard,with the intention of moving or capturing:



            4.3.1

            one or more of his own pieces, he must move the first piece touched that can be moved



            4.3.2

            one or more of his opponent’s pieces, he must capture the first piece touched that can be captured



            4.3.3

            one or more pieces of each colour, he must capture the first touched opponent’s piece with his first touched piece or, if this is illegal, move or capture the first piece touched that can be moved or captured. If it is unclear whether the player’s own piece or his opponent’s was touched first, the player’s own piece shall be considered to have been touched before his opponent’s.




            Article 4.2.2 establishes that any non-accidental contact shall be considered intent, so touching the opponent's bishop with your knight establishes intent to capture. At that stage, you've touched both your knight and your opponent's bishop - that is, you've touched "one or more pieces of each colour" - so article 4.3.3 dictates what happens next.



            Let's break down article 4.3.3, then. It first says you must:




            capture the first touched opponent’s piece with his first touched piece




            (nope, you can't do that - it's an illegal move)




            or, if this is illegal




            (it is)




            move or capture the first piece touched that can be moved or captured




            Since your knight cannot be moved, the "first piece touched that can be moved or captured" is your opponent's bishop. Therefore you must capture it.






            share|improve this answer




























              2














              The relevant sections from https://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=208&view=article:




              4.2.1

              Only the player having the move may adjust one or more pieces ...



              4.2.2

              Any other physical contact with a piece, except for clearly accidental contact, shall be considered to be intent.



              4.3

              Except as provided in Article 4.2, if the player having the move touches on the chessboard,with the intention of moving or capturing:



              4.3.1

              one or more of his own pieces, he must move the first piece touched that can be moved



              4.3.2

              one or more of his opponent’s pieces, he must capture the first piece touched that can be captured



              4.3.3

              one or more pieces of each colour, he must capture the first touched opponent’s piece with his first touched piece or, if this is illegal, move or capture the first piece touched that can be moved or captured. If it is unclear whether the player’s own piece or his opponent’s was touched first, the player’s own piece shall be considered to have been touched before his opponent’s.




              Article 4.2.2 establishes that any non-accidental contact shall be considered intent, so touching the opponent's bishop with your knight establishes intent to capture. At that stage, you've touched both your knight and your opponent's bishop - that is, you've touched "one or more pieces of each colour" - so article 4.3.3 dictates what happens next.



              Let's break down article 4.3.3, then. It first says you must:




              capture the first touched opponent’s piece with his first touched piece




              (nope, you can't do that - it's an illegal move)




              or, if this is illegal




              (it is)




              move or capture the first piece touched that can be moved or captured




              Since your knight cannot be moved, the "first piece touched that can be moved or captured" is your opponent's bishop. Therefore you must capture it.






              share|improve this answer


























                2












                2








                2







                The relevant sections from https://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=208&view=article:




                4.2.1

                Only the player having the move may adjust one or more pieces ...



                4.2.2

                Any other physical contact with a piece, except for clearly accidental contact, shall be considered to be intent.



                4.3

                Except as provided in Article 4.2, if the player having the move touches on the chessboard,with the intention of moving or capturing:



                4.3.1

                one or more of his own pieces, he must move the first piece touched that can be moved



                4.3.2

                one or more of his opponent’s pieces, he must capture the first piece touched that can be captured



                4.3.3

                one or more pieces of each colour, he must capture the first touched opponent’s piece with his first touched piece or, if this is illegal, move or capture the first piece touched that can be moved or captured. If it is unclear whether the player’s own piece or his opponent’s was touched first, the player’s own piece shall be considered to have been touched before his opponent’s.




                Article 4.2.2 establishes that any non-accidental contact shall be considered intent, so touching the opponent's bishop with your knight establishes intent to capture. At that stage, you've touched both your knight and your opponent's bishop - that is, you've touched "one or more pieces of each colour" - so article 4.3.3 dictates what happens next.



                Let's break down article 4.3.3, then. It first says you must:




                capture the first touched opponent’s piece with his first touched piece




                (nope, you can't do that - it's an illegal move)




                or, if this is illegal




                (it is)




                move or capture the first piece touched that can be moved or captured




                Since your knight cannot be moved, the "first piece touched that can be moved or captured" is your opponent's bishop. Therefore you must capture it.






                share|improve this answer













                The relevant sections from https://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=208&view=article:




                4.2.1

                Only the player having the move may adjust one or more pieces ...



                4.2.2

                Any other physical contact with a piece, except for clearly accidental contact, shall be considered to be intent.



                4.3

                Except as provided in Article 4.2, if the player having the move touches on the chessboard,with the intention of moving or capturing:



                4.3.1

                one or more of his own pieces, he must move the first piece touched that can be moved



                4.3.2

                one or more of his opponent’s pieces, he must capture the first piece touched that can be captured



                4.3.3

                one or more pieces of each colour, he must capture the first touched opponent’s piece with his first touched piece or, if this is illegal, move or capture the first piece touched that can be moved or captured. If it is unclear whether the player’s own piece or his opponent’s was touched first, the player’s own piece shall be considered to have been touched before his opponent’s.




                Article 4.2.2 establishes that any non-accidental contact shall be considered intent, so touching the opponent's bishop with your knight establishes intent to capture. At that stage, you've touched both your knight and your opponent's bishop - that is, you've touched "one or more pieces of each colour" - so article 4.3.3 dictates what happens next.



                Let's break down article 4.3.3, then. It first says you must:




                capture the first touched opponent’s piece with his first touched piece




                (nope, you can't do that - it's an illegal move)




                or, if this is illegal




                (it is)




                move or capture the first piece touched that can be moved or captured




                Since your knight cannot be moved, the "first piece touched that can be moved or captured" is your opponent's bishop. Therefore you must capture it.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered Apr 6 at 17:24









                Mark AmeryMark Amery

                1236




                1236






























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