Why accidentals are not additive?
This question asks if the accidentals are not "additive" (i.e. placing a sharp on F where the key signature already contains an F sharp would result in an F double sharp, and placing a flat on F in the same key would mean F natural), but it does not explains why they are not.
At least in my opinion, additive accidentals would have the following advantages:
- there would be no need in a separate natural sign, since cancellation could be expressed with the opposite accidental.
- double alterations would be used much less often (in the most cases, double sharps and flats are used to raise/lower a note which has been already sharpened/flattened, not to raise/lower a natural note by 2 semitones).
- accidentals would stay the same upon transposing. In particular case, all scales would be written in the same manner (e.g. a harmonic minor scale would always have a sharp on its 7th degree, regardless of the key signature).
- the notation system would become more logically coherent (for example, a note with a sharp near it will always sound a semitone higher than the same note without this sharp - i.e. if we erase this sharp, the sound will be always a semitone lower)
So, why it was "decided" to stick to the current system?
P.S. I know that "why" may not be (or at least sound as) a correct question for the StackExchange format (because it associates with primarily opinion-based questions; so I apologise in advance for the question being out of format), but I believe that the objective reasons for this particular topic should exist (because the notation system is (almost) worldwide-spread).
notation key-signatures accidentals
|
show 2 more comments
This question asks if the accidentals are not "additive" (i.e. placing a sharp on F where the key signature already contains an F sharp would result in an F double sharp, and placing a flat on F in the same key would mean F natural), but it does not explains why they are not.
At least in my opinion, additive accidentals would have the following advantages:
- there would be no need in a separate natural sign, since cancellation could be expressed with the opposite accidental.
- double alterations would be used much less often (in the most cases, double sharps and flats are used to raise/lower a note which has been already sharpened/flattened, not to raise/lower a natural note by 2 semitones).
- accidentals would stay the same upon transposing. In particular case, all scales would be written in the same manner (e.g. a harmonic minor scale would always have a sharp on its 7th degree, regardless of the key signature).
- the notation system would become more logically coherent (for example, a note with a sharp near it will always sound a semitone higher than the same note without this sharp - i.e. if we erase this sharp, the sound will be always a semitone lower)
So, why it was "decided" to stick to the current system?
P.S. I know that "why" may not be (or at least sound as) a correct question for the StackExchange format (because it associates with primarily opinion-based questions; so I apologise in advance for the question being out of format), but I believe that the objective reasons for this particular topic should exist (because the notation system is (almost) worldwide-spread).
notation key-signatures accidentals
2
Interesting concept. I'm sure various derivatives have been mooted and tried over time, but the 'old' method was the one that won through. Similar idea to both # and b in the same key sig. Never caught on.
– Tim
Jan 18 at 11:08
8
It would be way too confusing. Notation should be crystal-clear, not "absolute minimum to be correct."
– Carl Witthoft
Jan 18 at 13:36
1
I bet it depends on the instrument. As a singer without perfect pitch, I think I'd prefer trolley813's system. As a singer with perfect pitch, or a player of an instrument that confers perfect pitch via muscle memory, I'd probably prefer the current system. It's worth noting that some early vocal music notation (e.g. Pammelia, I think) did use a sharp sign to cancel a flat in the key signature.
– benrg
Jan 18 at 19:26
1
Given the frequency with which amateur choristers will already sing a G when there is a 'reminder' F# printed for the accompanist in a key that is already sharp (usually because there was previously a natural in another voice)... oh please no :) :)
– Affe
Jan 18 at 22:41
Is your idea to make accidentals additive with respect to the key signature only, or also with respect to previous accidentals? E.g., if I'm in the key of Db, and I see a D# and then another D#, are the notes I play (in standard notation) D D#, or D D?
– Ben Crowell
Jan 19 at 16:10
|
show 2 more comments
This question asks if the accidentals are not "additive" (i.e. placing a sharp on F where the key signature already contains an F sharp would result in an F double sharp, and placing a flat on F in the same key would mean F natural), but it does not explains why they are not.
At least in my opinion, additive accidentals would have the following advantages:
- there would be no need in a separate natural sign, since cancellation could be expressed with the opposite accidental.
- double alterations would be used much less often (in the most cases, double sharps and flats are used to raise/lower a note which has been already sharpened/flattened, not to raise/lower a natural note by 2 semitones).
- accidentals would stay the same upon transposing. In particular case, all scales would be written in the same manner (e.g. a harmonic minor scale would always have a sharp on its 7th degree, regardless of the key signature).
- the notation system would become more logically coherent (for example, a note with a sharp near it will always sound a semitone higher than the same note without this sharp - i.e. if we erase this sharp, the sound will be always a semitone lower)
So, why it was "decided" to stick to the current system?
P.S. I know that "why" may not be (or at least sound as) a correct question for the StackExchange format (because it associates with primarily opinion-based questions; so I apologise in advance for the question being out of format), but I believe that the objective reasons for this particular topic should exist (because the notation system is (almost) worldwide-spread).
notation key-signatures accidentals
This question asks if the accidentals are not "additive" (i.e. placing a sharp on F where the key signature already contains an F sharp would result in an F double sharp, and placing a flat on F in the same key would mean F natural), but it does not explains why they are not.
At least in my opinion, additive accidentals would have the following advantages:
- there would be no need in a separate natural sign, since cancellation could be expressed with the opposite accidental.
- double alterations would be used much less often (in the most cases, double sharps and flats are used to raise/lower a note which has been already sharpened/flattened, not to raise/lower a natural note by 2 semitones).
- accidentals would stay the same upon transposing. In particular case, all scales would be written in the same manner (e.g. a harmonic minor scale would always have a sharp on its 7th degree, regardless of the key signature).
- the notation system would become more logically coherent (for example, a note with a sharp near it will always sound a semitone higher than the same note without this sharp - i.e. if we erase this sharp, the sound will be always a semitone lower)
So, why it was "decided" to stick to the current system?
P.S. I know that "why" may not be (or at least sound as) a correct question for the StackExchange format (because it associates with primarily opinion-based questions; so I apologise in advance for the question being out of format), but I believe that the objective reasons for this particular topic should exist (because the notation system is (almost) worldwide-spread).
notation key-signatures accidentals
notation key-signatures accidentals
asked Jan 18 at 10:55
trolley813trolley813
30817
30817
2
Interesting concept. I'm sure various derivatives have been mooted and tried over time, but the 'old' method was the one that won through. Similar idea to both # and b in the same key sig. Never caught on.
– Tim
Jan 18 at 11:08
8
It would be way too confusing. Notation should be crystal-clear, not "absolute minimum to be correct."
– Carl Witthoft
Jan 18 at 13:36
1
I bet it depends on the instrument. As a singer without perfect pitch, I think I'd prefer trolley813's system. As a singer with perfect pitch, or a player of an instrument that confers perfect pitch via muscle memory, I'd probably prefer the current system. It's worth noting that some early vocal music notation (e.g. Pammelia, I think) did use a sharp sign to cancel a flat in the key signature.
– benrg
Jan 18 at 19:26
1
Given the frequency with which amateur choristers will already sing a G when there is a 'reminder' F# printed for the accompanist in a key that is already sharp (usually because there was previously a natural in another voice)... oh please no :) :)
– Affe
Jan 18 at 22:41
Is your idea to make accidentals additive with respect to the key signature only, or also with respect to previous accidentals? E.g., if I'm in the key of Db, and I see a D# and then another D#, are the notes I play (in standard notation) D D#, or D D?
– Ben Crowell
Jan 19 at 16:10
|
show 2 more comments
2
Interesting concept. I'm sure various derivatives have been mooted and tried over time, but the 'old' method was the one that won through. Similar idea to both # and b in the same key sig. Never caught on.
– Tim
Jan 18 at 11:08
8
It would be way too confusing. Notation should be crystal-clear, not "absolute minimum to be correct."
– Carl Witthoft
Jan 18 at 13:36
1
I bet it depends on the instrument. As a singer without perfect pitch, I think I'd prefer trolley813's system. As a singer with perfect pitch, or a player of an instrument that confers perfect pitch via muscle memory, I'd probably prefer the current system. It's worth noting that some early vocal music notation (e.g. Pammelia, I think) did use a sharp sign to cancel a flat in the key signature.
– benrg
Jan 18 at 19:26
1
Given the frequency with which amateur choristers will already sing a G when there is a 'reminder' F# printed for the accompanist in a key that is already sharp (usually because there was previously a natural in another voice)... oh please no :) :)
– Affe
Jan 18 at 22:41
Is your idea to make accidentals additive with respect to the key signature only, or also with respect to previous accidentals? E.g., if I'm in the key of Db, and I see a D# and then another D#, are the notes I play (in standard notation) D D#, or D D?
– Ben Crowell
Jan 19 at 16:10
2
2
Interesting concept. I'm sure various derivatives have been mooted and tried over time, but the 'old' method was the one that won through. Similar idea to both # and b in the same key sig. Never caught on.
– Tim
Jan 18 at 11:08
Interesting concept. I'm sure various derivatives have been mooted and tried over time, but the 'old' method was the one that won through. Similar idea to both # and b in the same key sig. Never caught on.
– Tim
Jan 18 at 11:08
8
8
It would be way too confusing. Notation should be crystal-clear, not "absolute minimum to be correct."
– Carl Witthoft
Jan 18 at 13:36
It would be way too confusing. Notation should be crystal-clear, not "absolute minimum to be correct."
– Carl Witthoft
Jan 18 at 13:36
1
1
I bet it depends on the instrument. As a singer without perfect pitch, I think I'd prefer trolley813's system. As a singer with perfect pitch, or a player of an instrument that confers perfect pitch via muscle memory, I'd probably prefer the current system. It's worth noting that some early vocal music notation (e.g. Pammelia, I think) did use a sharp sign to cancel a flat in the key signature.
– benrg
Jan 18 at 19:26
I bet it depends on the instrument. As a singer without perfect pitch, I think I'd prefer trolley813's system. As a singer with perfect pitch, or a player of an instrument that confers perfect pitch via muscle memory, I'd probably prefer the current system. It's worth noting that some early vocal music notation (e.g. Pammelia, I think) did use a sharp sign to cancel a flat in the key signature.
– benrg
Jan 18 at 19:26
1
1
Given the frequency with which amateur choristers will already sing a G when there is a 'reminder' F# printed for the accompanist in a key that is already sharp (usually because there was previously a natural in another voice)... oh please no :) :)
– Affe
Jan 18 at 22:41
Given the frequency with which amateur choristers will already sing a G when there is a 'reminder' F# printed for the accompanist in a key that is already sharp (usually because there was previously a natural in another voice)... oh please no :) :)
– Affe
Jan 18 at 22:41
Is your idea to make accidentals additive with respect to the key signature only, or also with respect to previous accidentals? E.g., if I'm in the key of Db, and I see a D# and then another D#, are the notes I play (in standard notation) D D#, or D D?
– Ben Crowell
Jan 19 at 16:10
Is your idea to make accidentals additive with respect to the key signature only, or also with respect to previous accidentals? E.g., if I'm in the key of Db, and I see a D# and then another D#, are the notes I play (in standard notation) D D#, or D D?
– Ben Crowell
Jan 19 at 16:10
|
show 2 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
A lot of this also has to do with convention. Once we learn certain patterns, we can respond to them quickly and efficiently, even if there are more logical ways to notate them. We see "of" and say "uv", without blinking an eye. "Once" = "wunce". But if we were to change the standard spelling of such words, it would take quite a bit of getting used to.
add a comment |
Hmm.
Lets take an example of how this would work in practice.
Currently, when I see a sharp sign in front of a note (lets say F as an example) I know that the note required is an F sharp. It may be in the key signature already but that does not matter: it is an F sharp, always - no question.
Under your system when I see a sharp sign in front of an F what note is it? F sharp probably but perhaps it is F double sharp (because there is already a sharp in the key signature) or perhaps it is F natural (because there is an F flat in the key signature or there was an F flat earlier in the bar). I have to do a lot more work to know what note to play.
Can you see the problem with that? It is perhaps not the reason that the notation works the way it does but it makes me think that the current system is easier than your proposal
6
Actually when you see an F without any accidental you have to do almost the same amount of work (to see or recall the key signature and the accidentals early in the bar) - it is probably F natural, but may be an F sharp or F flat (or even double sharp or flat in some extreme cases). So, it's probably not the main reason for it. (Upvoted nevertheless, but did not accept, waiting for other answers)
– trolley813
Jan 18 at 11:23
4
This is what I was going to say too. Holding the key in your head as a starting point and then altering it bar by bar is much easier than holding the key plus whatever alterations have occurred thus far. Also since we are not perfect, reminder or courtesy accidental are used to help us out.
– b3ko
Jan 18 at 13:08
16
@trolley813 that's not the way any of us musicians see it. Knowing key signatures and scales is fundamental to playing. Further, music scores are chock-full of "reminder" sharp, flat, natural indicators to avoid uncertainty while playing.
– Carl Witthoft
Jan 18 at 13:38
4
@CarlWitthoft - Agreed. I don't see two sharps in the key sig and think "okay that's an F# and a C#" for every measure. I glance at the start of the line, see vaguely two sharps and know where my fingers go. That is - I know the patterns of the key from the signature and how it relates to my instrument. (Even sitting here now thinking about D Major I feel the extension of my third finger on the C and G strings.)
– Geoff
Jan 18 at 15:49
11
The point is that you only have to look back until you find the last alteration, and then that tells you everything you need to know. If accidentals were additive, you would need to look back and collect every single accidental and then add them together. So you see an A, look back and there's a sharp, then a flat, then a sharp, and there's a flat in the key signature. You have to collapse all of that to see that everything cancels.
– MattPutnam
Jan 18 at 16:44
|
show 3 more comments
Situations can arise, especially in multi-voice music where a performer would have difficulty determining whether a note has an accidental or not. Consider, for example, choral piece on F major with two vocal parts on the same staff; one sings a marked B natural early in the measure and the other sings an unmarked B at the same staff position later in the same measure. A vocalist playing off that score would be unlikely to see the accidental on the other part, and thus sing Bb, but a pianist who is sight reading the score would be unlikely to notice that the later note wasn't in the same part that had the accidental, thus playing Bnat.
If accidental markings indicate absolute pitches, the later note may be explicitly marked as Bb or Bnat (depending upon which pitch is needed), ensuring that it will be played consistently whether or not the performer noticed the previous accidental. If accidentals indicate relative pitches, however, then it would be difficult to notate the piece in such a way as to facilitate sight reading by both singers and pianists.
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
A lot of this also has to do with convention. Once we learn certain patterns, we can respond to them quickly and efficiently, even if there are more logical ways to notate them. We see "of" and say "uv", without blinking an eye. "Once" = "wunce". But if we were to change the standard spelling of such words, it would take quite a bit of getting used to.
add a comment |
A lot of this also has to do with convention. Once we learn certain patterns, we can respond to them quickly and efficiently, even if there are more logical ways to notate them. We see "of" and say "uv", without blinking an eye. "Once" = "wunce". But if we were to change the standard spelling of such words, it would take quite a bit of getting used to.
add a comment |
A lot of this also has to do with convention. Once we learn certain patterns, we can respond to them quickly and efficiently, even if there are more logical ways to notate them. We see "of" and say "uv", without blinking an eye. "Once" = "wunce". But if we were to change the standard spelling of such words, it would take quite a bit of getting used to.
A lot of this also has to do with convention. Once we learn certain patterns, we can respond to them quickly and efficiently, even if there are more logical ways to notate them. We see "of" and say "uv", without blinking an eye. "Once" = "wunce". But if we were to change the standard spelling of such words, it would take quite a bit of getting used to.
answered Jan 18 at 20:18
DonDon
661
661
add a comment |
add a comment |
Hmm.
Lets take an example of how this would work in practice.
Currently, when I see a sharp sign in front of a note (lets say F as an example) I know that the note required is an F sharp. It may be in the key signature already but that does not matter: it is an F sharp, always - no question.
Under your system when I see a sharp sign in front of an F what note is it? F sharp probably but perhaps it is F double sharp (because there is already a sharp in the key signature) or perhaps it is F natural (because there is an F flat in the key signature or there was an F flat earlier in the bar). I have to do a lot more work to know what note to play.
Can you see the problem with that? It is perhaps not the reason that the notation works the way it does but it makes me think that the current system is easier than your proposal
6
Actually when you see an F without any accidental you have to do almost the same amount of work (to see or recall the key signature and the accidentals early in the bar) - it is probably F natural, but may be an F sharp or F flat (or even double sharp or flat in some extreme cases). So, it's probably not the main reason for it. (Upvoted nevertheless, but did not accept, waiting for other answers)
– trolley813
Jan 18 at 11:23
4
This is what I was going to say too. Holding the key in your head as a starting point and then altering it bar by bar is much easier than holding the key plus whatever alterations have occurred thus far. Also since we are not perfect, reminder or courtesy accidental are used to help us out.
– b3ko
Jan 18 at 13:08
16
@trolley813 that's not the way any of us musicians see it. Knowing key signatures and scales is fundamental to playing. Further, music scores are chock-full of "reminder" sharp, flat, natural indicators to avoid uncertainty while playing.
– Carl Witthoft
Jan 18 at 13:38
4
@CarlWitthoft - Agreed. I don't see two sharps in the key sig and think "okay that's an F# and a C#" for every measure. I glance at the start of the line, see vaguely two sharps and know where my fingers go. That is - I know the patterns of the key from the signature and how it relates to my instrument. (Even sitting here now thinking about D Major I feel the extension of my third finger on the C and G strings.)
– Geoff
Jan 18 at 15:49
11
The point is that you only have to look back until you find the last alteration, and then that tells you everything you need to know. If accidentals were additive, you would need to look back and collect every single accidental and then add them together. So you see an A, look back and there's a sharp, then a flat, then a sharp, and there's a flat in the key signature. You have to collapse all of that to see that everything cancels.
– MattPutnam
Jan 18 at 16:44
|
show 3 more comments
Hmm.
Lets take an example of how this would work in practice.
Currently, when I see a sharp sign in front of a note (lets say F as an example) I know that the note required is an F sharp. It may be in the key signature already but that does not matter: it is an F sharp, always - no question.
Under your system when I see a sharp sign in front of an F what note is it? F sharp probably but perhaps it is F double sharp (because there is already a sharp in the key signature) or perhaps it is F natural (because there is an F flat in the key signature or there was an F flat earlier in the bar). I have to do a lot more work to know what note to play.
Can you see the problem with that? It is perhaps not the reason that the notation works the way it does but it makes me think that the current system is easier than your proposal
6
Actually when you see an F without any accidental you have to do almost the same amount of work (to see or recall the key signature and the accidentals early in the bar) - it is probably F natural, but may be an F sharp or F flat (or even double sharp or flat in some extreme cases). So, it's probably not the main reason for it. (Upvoted nevertheless, but did not accept, waiting for other answers)
– trolley813
Jan 18 at 11:23
4
This is what I was going to say too. Holding the key in your head as a starting point and then altering it bar by bar is much easier than holding the key plus whatever alterations have occurred thus far. Also since we are not perfect, reminder or courtesy accidental are used to help us out.
– b3ko
Jan 18 at 13:08
16
@trolley813 that's not the way any of us musicians see it. Knowing key signatures and scales is fundamental to playing. Further, music scores are chock-full of "reminder" sharp, flat, natural indicators to avoid uncertainty while playing.
– Carl Witthoft
Jan 18 at 13:38
4
@CarlWitthoft - Agreed. I don't see two sharps in the key sig and think "okay that's an F# and a C#" for every measure. I glance at the start of the line, see vaguely two sharps and know where my fingers go. That is - I know the patterns of the key from the signature and how it relates to my instrument. (Even sitting here now thinking about D Major I feel the extension of my third finger on the C and G strings.)
– Geoff
Jan 18 at 15:49
11
The point is that you only have to look back until you find the last alteration, and then that tells you everything you need to know. If accidentals were additive, you would need to look back and collect every single accidental and then add them together. So you see an A, look back and there's a sharp, then a flat, then a sharp, and there's a flat in the key signature. You have to collapse all of that to see that everything cancels.
– MattPutnam
Jan 18 at 16:44
|
show 3 more comments
Hmm.
Lets take an example of how this would work in practice.
Currently, when I see a sharp sign in front of a note (lets say F as an example) I know that the note required is an F sharp. It may be in the key signature already but that does not matter: it is an F sharp, always - no question.
Under your system when I see a sharp sign in front of an F what note is it? F sharp probably but perhaps it is F double sharp (because there is already a sharp in the key signature) or perhaps it is F natural (because there is an F flat in the key signature or there was an F flat earlier in the bar). I have to do a lot more work to know what note to play.
Can you see the problem with that? It is perhaps not the reason that the notation works the way it does but it makes me think that the current system is easier than your proposal
Hmm.
Lets take an example of how this would work in practice.
Currently, when I see a sharp sign in front of a note (lets say F as an example) I know that the note required is an F sharp. It may be in the key signature already but that does not matter: it is an F sharp, always - no question.
Under your system when I see a sharp sign in front of an F what note is it? F sharp probably but perhaps it is F double sharp (because there is already a sharp in the key signature) or perhaps it is F natural (because there is an F flat in the key signature or there was an F flat earlier in the bar). I have to do a lot more work to know what note to play.
Can you see the problem with that? It is perhaps not the reason that the notation works the way it does but it makes me think that the current system is easier than your proposal
answered Jan 18 at 11:16
JimMJimM
2,571710
2,571710
6
Actually when you see an F without any accidental you have to do almost the same amount of work (to see or recall the key signature and the accidentals early in the bar) - it is probably F natural, but may be an F sharp or F flat (or even double sharp or flat in some extreme cases). So, it's probably not the main reason for it. (Upvoted nevertheless, but did not accept, waiting for other answers)
– trolley813
Jan 18 at 11:23
4
This is what I was going to say too. Holding the key in your head as a starting point and then altering it bar by bar is much easier than holding the key plus whatever alterations have occurred thus far. Also since we are not perfect, reminder or courtesy accidental are used to help us out.
– b3ko
Jan 18 at 13:08
16
@trolley813 that's not the way any of us musicians see it. Knowing key signatures and scales is fundamental to playing. Further, music scores are chock-full of "reminder" sharp, flat, natural indicators to avoid uncertainty while playing.
– Carl Witthoft
Jan 18 at 13:38
4
@CarlWitthoft - Agreed. I don't see two sharps in the key sig and think "okay that's an F# and a C#" for every measure. I glance at the start of the line, see vaguely two sharps and know where my fingers go. That is - I know the patterns of the key from the signature and how it relates to my instrument. (Even sitting here now thinking about D Major I feel the extension of my third finger on the C and G strings.)
– Geoff
Jan 18 at 15:49
11
The point is that you only have to look back until you find the last alteration, and then that tells you everything you need to know. If accidentals were additive, you would need to look back and collect every single accidental and then add them together. So you see an A, look back and there's a sharp, then a flat, then a sharp, and there's a flat in the key signature. You have to collapse all of that to see that everything cancels.
– MattPutnam
Jan 18 at 16:44
|
show 3 more comments
6
Actually when you see an F without any accidental you have to do almost the same amount of work (to see or recall the key signature and the accidentals early in the bar) - it is probably F natural, but may be an F sharp or F flat (or even double sharp or flat in some extreme cases). So, it's probably not the main reason for it. (Upvoted nevertheless, but did not accept, waiting for other answers)
– trolley813
Jan 18 at 11:23
4
This is what I was going to say too. Holding the key in your head as a starting point and then altering it bar by bar is much easier than holding the key plus whatever alterations have occurred thus far. Also since we are not perfect, reminder or courtesy accidental are used to help us out.
– b3ko
Jan 18 at 13:08
16
@trolley813 that's not the way any of us musicians see it. Knowing key signatures and scales is fundamental to playing. Further, music scores are chock-full of "reminder" sharp, flat, natural indicators to avoid uncertainty while playing.
– Carl Witthoft
Jan 18 at 13:38
4
@CarlWitthoft - Agreed. I don't see two sharps in the key sig and think "okay that's an F# and a C#" for every measure. I glance at the start of the line, see vaguely two sharps and know where my fingers go. That is - I know the patterns of the key from the signature and how it relates to my instrument. (Even sitting here now thinking about D Major I feel the extension of my third finger on the C and G strings.)
– Geoff
Jan 18 at 15:49
11
The point is that you only have to look back until you find the last alteration, and then that tells you everything you need to know. If accidentals were additive, you would need to look back and collect every single accidental and then add them together. So you see an A, look back and there's a sharp, then a flat, then a sharp, and there's a flat in the key signature. You have to collapse all of that to see that everything cancels.
– MattPutnam
Jan 18 at 16:44
6
6
Actually when you see an F without any accidental you have to do almost the same amount of work (to see or recall the key signature and the accidentals early in the bar) - it is probably F natural, but may be an F sharp or F flat (or even double sharp or flat in some extreme cases). So, it's probably not the main reason for it. (Upvoted nevertheless, but did not accept, waiting for other answers)
– trolley813
Jan 18 at 11:23
Actually when you see an F without any accidental you have to do almost the same amount of work (to see or recall the key signature and the accidentals early in the bar) - it is probably F natural, but may be an F sharp or F flat (or even double sharp or flat in some extreme cases). So, it's probably not the main reason for it. (Upvoted nevertheless, but did not accept, waiting for other answers)
– trolley813
Jan 18 at 11:23
4
4
This is what I was going to say too. Holding the key in your head as a starting point and then altering it bar by bar is much easier than holding the key plus whatever alterations have occurred thus far. Also since we are not perfect, reminder or courtesy accidental are used to help us out.
– b3ko
Jan 18 at 13:08
This is what I was going to say too. Holding the key in your head as a starting point and then altering it bar by bar is much easier than holding the key plus whatever alterations have occurred thus far. Also since we are not perfect, reminder or courtesy accidental are used to help us out.
– b3ko
Jan 18 at 13:08
16
16
@trolley813 that's not the way any of us musicians see it. Knowing key signatures and scales is fundamental to playing. Further, music scores are chock-full of "reminder" sharp, flat, natural indicators to avoid uncertainty while playing.
– Carl Witthoft
Jan 18 at 13:38
@trolley813 that's not the way any of us musicians see it. Knowing key signatures and scales is fundamental to playing. Further, music scores are chock-full of "reminder" sharp, flat, natural indicators to avoid uncertainty while playing.
– Carl Witthoft
Jan 18 at 13:38
4
4
@CarlWitthoft - Agreed. I don't see two sharps in the key sig and think "okay that's an F# and a C#" for every measure. I glance at the start of the line, see vaguely two sharps and know where my fingers go. That is - I know the patterns of the key from the signature and how it relates to my instrument. (Even sitting here now thinking about D Major I feel the extension of my third finger on the C and G strings.)
– Geoff
Jan 18 at 15:49
@CarlWitthoft - Agreed. I don't see two sharps in the key sig and think "okay that's an F# and a C#" for every measure. I glance at the start of the line, see vaguely two sharps and know where my fingers go. That is - I know the patterns of the key from the signature and how it relates to my instrument. (Even sitting here now thinking about D Major I feel the extension of my third finger on the C and G strings.)
– Geoff
Jan 18 at 15:49
11
11
The point is that you only have to look back until you find the last alteration, and then that tells you everything you need to know. If accidentals were additive, you would need to look back and collect every single accidental and then add them together. So you see an A, look back and there's a sharp, then a flat, then a sharp, and there's a flat in the key signature. You have to collapse all of that to see that everything cancels.
– MattPutnam
Jan 18 at 16:44
The point is that you only have to look back until you find the last alteration, and then that tells you everything you need to know. If accidentals were additive, you would need to look back and collect every single accidental and then add them together. So you see an A, look back and there's a sharp, then a flat, then a sharp, and there's a flat in the key signature. You have to collapse all of that to see that everything cancels.
– MattPutnam
Jan 18 at 16:44
|
show 3 more comments
Situations can arise, especially in multi-voice music where a performer would have difficulty determining whether a note has an accidental or not. Consider, for example, choral piece on F major with two vocal parts on the same staff; one sings a marked B natural early in the measure and the other sings an unmarked B at the same staff position later in the same measure. A vocalist playing off that score would be unlikely to see the accidental on the other part, and thus sing Bb, but a pianist who is sight reading the score would be unlikely to notice that the later note wasn't in the same part that had the accidental, thus playing Bnat.
If accidental markings indicate absolute pitches, the later note may be explicitly marked as Bb or Bnat (depending upon which pitch is needed), ensuring that it will be played consistently whether or not the performer noticed the previous accidental. If accidentals indicate relative pitches, however, then it would be difficult to notate the piece in such a way as to facilitate sight reading by both singers and pianists.
add a comment |
Situations can arise, especially in multi-voice music where a performer would have difficulty determining whether a note has an accidental or not. Consider, for example, choral piece on F major with two vocal parts on the same staff; one sings a marked B natural early in the measure and the other sings an unmarked B at the same staff position later in the same measure. A vocalist playing off that score would be unlikely to see the accidental on the other part, and thus sing Bb, but a pianist who is sight reading the score would be unlikely to notice that the later note wasn't in the same part that had the accidental, thus playing Bnat.
If accidental markings indicate absolute pitches, the later note may be explicitly marked as Bb or Bnat (depending upon which pitch is needed), ensuring that it will be played consistently whether or not the performer noticed the previous accidental. If accidentals indicate relative pitches, however, then it would be difficult to notate the piece in such a way as to facilitate sight reading by both singers and pianists.
add a comment |
Situations can arise, especially in multi-voice music where a performer would have difficulty determining whether a note has an accidental or not. Consider, for example, choral piece on F major with two vocal parts on the same staff; one sings a marked B natural early in the measure and the other sings an unmarked B at the same staff position later in the same measure. A vocalist playing off that score would be unlikely to see the accidental on the other part, and thus sing Bb, but a pianist who is sight reading the score would be unlikely to notice that the later note wasn't in the same part that had the accidental, thus playing Bnat.
If accidental markings indicate absolute pitches, the later note may be explicitly marked as Bb or Bnat (depending upon which pitch is needed), ensuring that it will be played consistently whether or not the performer noticed the previous accidental. If accidentals indicate relative pitches, however, then it would be difficult to notate the piece in such a way as to facilitate sight reading by both singers and pianists.
Situations can arise, especially in multi-voice music where a performer would have difficulty determining whether a note has an accidental or not. Consider, for example, choral piece on F major with two vocal parts on the same staff; one sings a marked B natural early in the measure and the other sings an unmarked B at the same staff position later in the same measure. A vocalist playing off that score would be unlikely to see the accidental on the other part, and thus sing Bb, but a pianist who is sight reading the score would be unlikely to notice that the later note wasn't in the same part that had the accidental, thus playing Bnat.
If accidental markings indicate absolute pitches, the later note may be explicitly marked as Bb or Bnat (depending upon which pitch is needed), ensuring that it will be played consistently whether or not the performer noticed the previous accidental. If accidentals indicate relative pitches, however, then it would be difficult to notate the piece in such a way as to facilitate sight reading by both singers and pianists.
answered Jan 18 at 15:56
supercatsupercat
2,3901015
2,3901015
add a comment |
add a comment |
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2
Interesting concept. I'm sure various derivatives have been mooted and tried over time, but the 'old' method was the one that won through. Similar idea to both # and b in the same key sig. Never caught on.
– Tim
Jan 18 at 11:08
8
It would be way too confusing. Notation should be crystal-clear, not "absolute minimum to be correct."
– Carl Witthoft
Jan 18 at 13:36
1
I bet it depends on the instrument. As a singer without perfect pitch, I think I'd prefer trolley813's system. As a singer with perfect pitch, or a player of an instrument that confers perfect pitch via muscle memory, I'd probably prefer the current system. It's worth noting that some early vocal music notation (e.g. Pammelia, I think) did use a sharp sign to cancel a flat in the key signature.
– benrg
Jan 18 at 19:26
1
Given the frequency with which amateur choristers will already sing a G when there is a 'reminder' F# printed for the accompanist in a key that is already sharp (usually because there was previously a natural in another voice)... oh please no :) :)
– Affe
Jan 18 at 22:41
Is your idea to make accidentals additive with respect to the key signature only, or also with respect to previous accidentals? E.g., if I'm in the key of Db, and I see a D# and then another D#, are the notes I play (in standard notation) D D#, or D D?
– Ben Crowell
Jan 19 at 16:10