Are children of Brahmin parents also Brahmin by caste?












3















Is caste based on birth? Is it inherited? Do any scriptures support birth based caste system?










share|improve this question























  • What do you mean by caste? Do you mean jati or is it something different? If it is something different, then scriptures do not talk about it because it's a term coined by British.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 3:57











  • Also when you say Brahmin, do you mean Brahman varna or something different?

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 4:00











  • @Lokesh I mean Brahmana by birth (by Jati), not merely by varna or behavioral quality.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 17 at 15:27











  • If you mean Brahmana by birth, why ask this question?

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 16:23











  • @Lokesh I asked this question to write an answer to it; many people don't think caste is based on birth, but it actually is, hence I wrote an answer and provided scriptural references.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 17 at 17:13
















3















Is caste based on birth? Is it inherited? Do any scriptures support birth based caste system?










share|improve this question























  • What do you mean by caste? Do you mean jati or is it something different? If it is something different, then scriptures do not talk about it because it's a term coined by British.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 3:57











  • Also when you say Brahmin, do you mean Brahman varna or something different?

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 4:00











  • @Lokesh I mean Brahmana by birth (by Jati), not merely by varna or behavioral quality.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 17 at 15:27











  • If you mean Brahmana by birth, why ask this question?

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 16:23











  • @Lokesh I asked this question to write an answer to it; many people don't think caste is based on birth, but it actually is, hence I wrote an answer and provided scriptural references.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 17 at 17:13














3












3








3








Is caste based on birth? Is it inherited? Do any scriptures support birth based caste system?










share|improve this question














Is caste based on birth? Is it inherited? Do any scriptures support birth based caste system?







caste-system






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked Jan 15 at 0:44









IkshvakuIkshvaku

4,827432




4,827432













  • What do you mean by caste? Do you mean jati or is it something different? If it is something different, then scriptures do not talk about it because it's a term coined by British.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 3:57











  • Also when you say Brahmin, do you mean Brahman varna or something different?

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 4:00











  • @Lokesh I mean Brahmana by birth (by Jati), not merely by varna or behavioral quality.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 17 at 15:27











  • If you mean Brahmana by birth, why ask this question?

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 16:23











  • @Lokesh I asked this question to write an answer to it; many people don't think caste is based on birth, but it actually is, hence I wrote an answer and provided scriptural references.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 17 at 17:13



















  • What do you mean by caste? Do you mean jati or is it something different? If it is something different, then scriptures do not talk about it because it's a term coined by British.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 3:57











  • Also when you say Brahmin, do you mean Brahman varna or something different?

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 4:00











  • @Lokesh I mean Brahmana by birth (by Jati), not merely by varna or behavioral quality.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 17 at 15:27











  • If you mean Brahmana by birth, why ask this question?

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 16:23











  • @Lokesh I asked this question to write an answer to it; many people don't think caste is based on birth, but it actually is, hence I wrote an answer and provided scriptural references.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 17 at 17:13

















What do you mean by caste? Do you mean jati or is it something different? If it is something different, then scriptures do not talk about it because it's a term coined by British.

– Lokesh
Jan 17 at 3:57





What do you mean by caste? Do you mean jati or is it something different? If it is something different, then scriptures do not talk about it because it's a term coined by British.

– Lokesh
Jan 17 at 3:57













Also when you say Brahmin, do you mean Brahman varna or something different?

– Lokesh
Jan 17 at 4:00





Also when you say Brahmin, do you mean Brahman varna or something different?

– Lokesh
Jan 17 at 4:00













@Lokesh I mean Brahmana by birth (by Jati), not merely by varna or behavioral quality.

– Ikshvaku
Jan 17 at 15:27





@Lokesh I mean Brahmana by birth (by Jati), not merely by varna or behavioral quality.

– Ikshvaku
Jan 17 at 15:27













If you mean Brahmana by birth, why ask this question?

– Lokesh
Jan 17 at 16:23





If you mean Brahmana by birth, why ask this question?

– Lokesh
Jan 17 at 16:23













@Lokesh I asked this question to write an answer to it; many people don't think caste is based on birth, but it actually is, hence I wrote an answer and provided scriptural references.

– Ikshvaku
Jan 17 at 17:13





@Lokesh I asked this question to write an answer to it; many people don't think caste is based on birth, but it actually is, hence I wrote an answer and provided scriptural references.

– Ikshvaku
Jan 17 at 17:13










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















5















Are children of Brahmin parents also Brahmin by caste?




It is not necessary .. It is not that simple as well.



Anyone is a Sudra without Samskaras (initiation) and so is a Brahmin even though he is one by virtue of birth.




Manu Smriti 2.172. (He who has not been initiated) should not
pronounce (any) Vedic text excepting (those required for) the
performance of funeral rites, since he is on a level with a Sudra
before his birth from the Veda.




So, what will be the castes of the sons of such a Vratya Brahmin (who has not received the Samskaras)? certainly not Brahmins , they will be Sudras (Vratyas) only.




16 Sons fathered by an uninitiated man are Vra¯tyas, excluded from initiation––so state the wise with equal reference to the three
classes.



Baudhayana Dharma Sutras 1.16.10




And, Samskaras are as many as 40 in number, starting from the Garbhadana, as stated in Gautama Smriti with Upanayana (initiation) being just one of the them.



And, to maintain the purity of caste system, as is mentioned in the Smritis, each of those Samskaras are to be performed in their prescribed times, generations after generations.



Assume that that has been done but the discussion does not end there.



Because, anyone can loose his caste by performing certain actions in his lifetime. And, it is quite easy for a Brahmin to loose his caste as well.




Manu Smriti 10.92. By (selling) flesh, salt, and lac a Brahmana at
once becomes an outcast; by selling milk he becomes (equal to) a Sudra
in three days.




In this case, what will you call the sons of this Brahmin who has become an outcast or a Sudra?



And, a Brahmin of bad conduct is also a Sudra or a Chandala. What will his sons be?




He who sets his face against righteousness, is but a Chandala by his
acts. He gains nothing by being a mendicant, or by worshipping the
household fire. (A Parashara Smriti verse)




Therefore, birth is only the first (and one) determining factor of caste, Samskaras and conduct being the other and more important factors.






share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    What you are referring to is Varna, not Jati. Varna is based on behavior while Jati is based on birth. Someone born as a Brahmana who isn't initiated is to be treated like a Shudra, which means the king can employee him in the works of Shudras, and he is excluded from all Yajnas, etc. But his Jati is still Brahmana. On the other hand, a Shudra who behaves like a Brahmana should be treated like one, but that doesn't mean he should get the Yajnopavitam or can intermarry with Brahmanas by Jati.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 15:57








  • 4





    So when u are referring to Brahmin in the Q wht does it refer to? Jati or Varna? Its called the Varnasrama and not Jatiasrama btw @Ikshvaku

    – Rickross
    Jan 15 at 16:22











  • If I understand it correctly, the Varna determines your birth in a particular caste. So if a Shudra, like Vidura, exhibits Brahmanical qualities, despite being born in a Shudra Jati, he will be born as Brahmana. And a Brahmana will be born as a Shudra if he neglects the Upanayanam, drinks, etc. Usually the Varna and Jati are consistent.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 16:32



















5














This is discussed in detail in Mahabharata.Vana Parva.Tirtha-yatra Parva. There is a conversation between Nahusha (in form of serpant), fifth in descent from the Moon and Yudhishthira:




The serpent said, 'O Yudhishthira, say--Who is a Brahmana and what should be known? By thy speech I infer thee to be highly intelligent.'




To answer this,




Yudhishthira said, 'O foremost of serpents, he, it is asserted by the wise, in whom are seen truth, charity, forgiveness, good conduct, benevolence, observance of the rites of his order and mercy is a Brahmana. And, O serpent, that which should be known is even the supreme Brahma, in which is neither happiness nor misery--and attaining which beings are not affected with misery; what is thy opinion?




Then, the serpent (Nahusha) objected this:




The serpent said, 'O Yudhishthira, truth, charity, forgiveness, benevolence, benignity, kindness and the Veda 1 which worketh the benefit of the four orders, which is the authority in matters of religion and which is true, are seen even in the Sudra. As regards the object to be known and which thou allegest is without both happiness and misery, I do not see any such that is devoid of these.'




The Yudhishthira replied




Yudhishthira said, Those characteristics that are present in a Sudra, do not exist in a Brahmana; nor do those that are in a Brahmana exist in a Sudra. And a Sudra is not a Sudra by birth alone--nor a Brahmana is Brahmana by birth alone. He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth. And again, as for thy assertion that the object to be known (as asserted by me) doth not exist, because nothing exists that is devoid of both (happiness and misery), such indeed is the opinion, O serpent, that nothing exists that is without (them) both. But as in cold, heat doth not exist, nor in heat, cold, so there cannot exist an object in which both (happiness and misery) cannot exist?"




The serpent (Nahusha) again objected:




The serpent said, 'O king, if thou recognise him as a Brahmana by characteristics, then, O long-lived one, the distinction of caste becometh futile as long as conduct doth not come into play.'




Yudhishthira then, replied




Yudhishthira said, 'In human society, O mighty and highly intelligent serpent, it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse among the four orders. This is my opinion. Men belonging to all orders (promiscuously) beget offspring upon women of all the orders. And of men, speech, sexual intercourse, birth and death are common. And to this the Rishis have borne testimony by using as the beginning of a sacrifice such expressions as--of what caste so ever we may be, we celebrate the sacrifice. Therefore, those that are wise have asserted that character is the chief essential requisite. The natal ceremony of a person is performed before division of the umbilical cord. His mother then acts as its Savitri and his father officiates as priest. He is considered as a Sudra as long as he is not initiated in the Vedas. Doubts having arisen on this point, O prince; of serpents, Swayambhuba Manu has declared, that the mixed castes are to be regarded as better than the (other) classes, if having gone through the ceremonies of purification, the latter do not conform to the rules of good conduct, O excellent snake! Whosoever now conforms to the rules of pure and virtuous conduct, him have I, ere now, designated as a Brahmana.'




With this answer the serpent (Nahusha) agreed and freed
Yudhishthira' s brother Bhima:




The serpent replied, 'O Yudhishthira, thou art acquainted with all that is fit to be known and having listened to thy words, how can I (now) eat up thy brother Vrikodara!"







share|improve this answer
























  • That Mahabharata passage is talking about the difference between Varna and Jati. Varna is based on behavior, whereas Jati is based on birth. Usually the Varna is consistent with the Jati. And that passage also acknowledges birth based caste: "He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth."

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 16:46






  • 2





    @Ikshvaku It's talking about both varna and jati, see it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse among the four orders..

    – Lakhi
    Jan 15 at 17:56











  • Nowadays that's the case; I would say most people today are outcastes due to thorough admixture.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 23:22






  • 2





    @Ikshvaku I didn't understand your first comment when you said "birth based caste". What do you mean by caste? The above passage only deals with jati and Varna. Secondly, Yudhisthir never recognises Varna is based on jati. The quote you mentioned, it's translation is inaccurate. Original verse nowhere mentions the word "birth". Thirdly serpent asks Yudhisthir whether Jati has any effect when conduct doesn't come into play. So it's clear when conduct is observable, jati is immaterial in determining Varna.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 3:52






  • 1





    @Ikshvaku Jati is not based on birth but jati's very meaning is birth / breed / clan. And chariot maker is not a caste. You don't call family of doctors to belong to doctor caste. You must learn the meaning of caste which was coined by British or simply use another word like jati because what you are saying is not making sense.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 16:15



















3














Yes, caste is based on birth. There is scriptural support for it.



Scriptural support:




Manusmriti (10.5).- In all castes (varna) those (children) only which
are begotten in the direct order on wedded wives, equal (in caste and
married as) virgins, are to be considered as belonging to the same
caste (as their fathers)



Āpastamba (2.13.1).—‘Sons begotten by a man who approaches in the
proper season a woman of equal caste, who has not belonged to another
man, and who has been married legally, have a right to follow the
occupations of their castes.’



Viṣṇu (16.1).—‘On women equal in caste to their husbands, sons are
begotten who are equal in caste to their fathers.’



Yājñavalkya (1.90).—‘From women of the same caste as their husbands
are born sons of the same caste.’



Baudhāyana (1.17.2).—‘Sons of equal caste spring from women of equal
caste.’




One thing consider is that the actual genetic makeup of the 4 castes are different. Brahmanas have Nadis in their body situated in such a way as to receive the vision of the Lord. Kshatriyas are genetically strong and physically fit. Vaishyas have a mind and body conducive for conducting business. Shudras are naturally pessimistic, lazy, simple-minded, and materialistic. That's how their bodies were constructed.



Source for Nadis in a Brahmana's body situated in a particular way:
https://youtu.be/dFEnxVfwqLE?t=2340
At 39:00 minutes in the video.






share|improve this answer















Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.










  • 4





    You should cite some source for "Brahmanas have Nadis.....That's how their bodies were constructed." and avoid scientific explanation i.e "the actual genetic makeup of the 4 castes are different"

    – Pandya
    Jan 16 at 14:00













  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Pandya
    Jan 16 at 14:02











  • @Pandya I will cite the video I heard this from. It is said by a great and recognized Vedic scholar. Also, when the Shastra talks about seed of men and women, it is a clear reference to what we know as genetics, since the sperm and egg cell (seed) contain 24 chromosomes respectively.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 16 at 14:02






  • 1





    @Pandya Can you unflag answer please, since I have added citations?

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 16 at 18:10



















3 Answers
3






active

oldest

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3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









5















Are children of Brahmin parents also Brahmin by caste?




It is not necessary .. It is not that simple as well.



Anyone is a Sudra without Samskaras (initiation) and so is a Brahmin even though he is one by virtue of birth.




Manu Smriti 2.172. (He who has not been initiated) should not
pronounce (any) Vedic text excepting (those required for) the
performance of funeral rites, since he is on a level with a Sudra
before his birth from the Veda.




So, what will be the castes of the sons of such a Vratya Brahmin (who has not received the Samskaras)? certainly not Brahmins , they will be Sudras (Vratyas) only.




16 Sons fathered by an uninitiated man are Vra¯tyas, excluded from initiation––so state the wise with equal reference to the three
classes.



Baudhayana Dharma Sutras 1.16.10




And, Samskaras are as many as 40 in number, starting from the Garbhadana, as stated in Gautama Smriti with Upanayana (initiation) being just one of the them.



And, to maintain the purity of caste system, as is mentioned in the Smritis, each of those Samskaras are to be performed in their prescribed times, generations after generations.



Assume that that has been done but the discussion does not end there.



Because, anyone can loose his caste by performing certain actions in his lifetime. And, it is quite easy for a Brahmin to loose his caste as well.




Manu Smriti 10.92. By (selling) flesh, salt, and lac a Brahmana at
once becomes an outcast; by selling milk he becomes (equal to) a Sudra
in three days.




In this case, what will you call the sons of this Brahmin who has become an outcast or a Sudra?



And, a Brahmin of bad conduct is also a Sudra or a Chandala. What will his sons be?




He who sets his face against righteousness, is but a Chandala by his
acts. He gains nothing by being a mendicant, or by worshipping the
household fire. (A Parashara Smriti verse)




Therefore, birth is only the first (and one) determining factor of caste, Samskaras and conduct being the other and more important factors.






share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    What you are referring to is Varna, not Jati. Varna is based on behavior while Jati is based on birth. Someone born as a Brahmana who isn't initiated is to be treated like a Shudra, which means the king can employee him in the works of Shudras, and he is excluded from all Yajnas, etc. But his Jati is still Brahmana. On the other hand, a Shudra who behaves like a Brahmana should be treated like one, but that doesn't mean he should get the Yajnopavitam or can intermarry with Brahmanas by Jati.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 15:57








  • 4





    So when u are referring to Brahmin in the Q wht does it refer to? Jati or Varna? Its called the Varnasrama and not Jatiasrama btw @Ikshvaku

    – Rickross
    Jan 15 at 16:22











  • If I understand it correctly, the Varna determines your birth in a particular caste. So if a Shudra, like Vidura, exhibits Brahmanical qualities, despite being born in a Shudra Jati, he will be born as Brahmana. And a Brahmana will be born as a Shudra if he neglects the Upanayanam, drinks, etc. Usually the Varna and Jati are consistent.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 16:32
















5















Are children of Brahmin parents also Brahmin by caste?




It is not necessary .. It is not that simple as well.



Anyone is a Sudra without Samskaras (initiation) and so is a Brahmin even though he is one by virtue of birth.




Manu Smriti 2.172. (He who has not been initiated) should not
pronounce (any) Vedic text excepting (those required for) the
performance of funeral rites, since he is on a level with a Sudra
before his birth from the Veda.




So, what will be the castes of the sons of such a Vratya Brahmin (who has not received the Samskaras)? certainly not Brahmins , they will be Sudras (Vratyas) only.




16 Sons fathered by an uninitiated man are Vra¯tyas, excluded from initiation––so state the wise with equal reference to the three
classes.



Baudhayana Dharma Sutras 1.16.10




And, Samskaras are as many as 40 in number, starting from the Garbhadana, as stated in Gautama Smriti with Upanayana (initiation) being just one of the them.



And, to maintain the purity of caste system, as is mentioned in the Smritis, each of those Samskaras are to be performed in their prescribed times, generations after generations.



Assume that that has been done but the discussion does not end there.



Because, anyone can loose his caste by performing certain actions in his lifetime. And, it is quite easy for a Brahmin to loose his caste as well.




Manu Smriti 10.92. By (selling) flesh, salt, and lac a Brahmana at
once becomes an outcast; by selling milk he becomes (equal to) a Sudra
in three days.




In this case, what will you call the sons of this Brahmin who has become an outcast or a Sudra?



And, a Brahmin of bad conduct is also a Sudra or a Chandala. What will his sons be?




He who sets his face against righteousness, is but a Chandala by his
acts. He gains nothing by being a mendicant, or by worshipping the
household fire. (A Parashara Smriti verse)




Therefore, birth is only the first (and one) determining factor of caste, Samskaras and conduct being the other and more important factors.






share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    What you are referring to is Varna, not Jati. Varna is based on behavior while Jati is based on birth. Someone born as a Brahmana who isn't initiated is to be treated like a Shudra, which means the king can employee him in the works of Shudras, and he is excluded from all Yajnas, etc. But his Jati is still Brahmana. On the other hand, a Shudra who behaves like a Brahmana should be treated like one, but that doesn't mean he should get the Yajnopavitam or can intermarry with Brahmanas by Jati.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 15:57








  • 4





    So when u are referring to Brahmin in the Q wht does it refer to? Jati or Varna? Its called the Varnasrama and not Jatiasrama btw @Ikshvaku

    – Rickross
    Jan 15 at 16:22











  • If I understand it correctly, the Varna determines your birth in a particular caste. So if a Shudra, like Vidura, exhibits Brahmanical qualities, despite being born in a Shudra Jati, he will be born as Brahmana. And a Brahmana will be born as a Shudra if he neglects the Upanayanam, drinks, etc. Usually the Varna and Jati are consistent.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 16:32














5












5








5








Are children of Brahmin parents also Brahmin by caste?




It is not necessary .. It is not that simple as well.



Anyone is a Sudra without Samskaras (initiation) and so is a Brahmin even though he is one by virtue of birth.




Manu Smriti 2.172. (He who has not been initiated) should not
pronounce (any) Vedic text excepting (those required for) the
performance of funeral rites, since he is on a level with a Sudra
before his birth from the Veda.




So, what will be the castes of the sons of such a Vratya Brahmin (who has not received the Samskaras)? certainly not Brahmins , they will be Sudras (Vratyas) only.




16 Sons fathered by an uninitiated man are Vra¯tyas, excluded from initiation––so state the wise with equal reference to the three
classes.



Baudhayana Dharma Sutras 1.16.10




And, Samskaras are as many as 40 in number, starting from the Garbhadana, as stated in Gautama Smriti with Upanayana (initiation) being just one of the them.



And, to maintain the purity of caste system, as is mentioned in the Smritis, each of those Samskaras are to be performed in their prescribed times, generations after generations.



Assume that that has been done but the discussion does not end there.



Because, anyone can loose his caste by performing certain actions in his lifetime. And, it is quite easy for a Brahmin to loose his caste as well.




Manu Smriti 10.92. By (selling) flesh, salt, and lac a Brahmana at
once becomes an outcast; by selling milk he becomes (equal to) a Sudra
in three days.




In this case, what will you call the sons of this Brahmin who has become an outcast or a Sudra?



And, a Brahmin of bad conduct is also a Sudra or a Chandala. What will his sons be?




He who sets his face against righteousness, is but a Chandala by his
acts. He gains nothing by being a mendicant, or by worshipping the
household fire. (A Parashara Smriti verse)




Therefore, birth is only the first (and one) determining factor of caste, Samskaras and conduct being the other and more important factors.






share|improve this answer
















Are children of Brahmin parents also Brahmin by caste?




It is not necessary .. It is not that simple as well.



Anyone is a Sudra without Samskaras (initiation) and so is a Brahmin even though he is one by virtue of birth.




Manu Smriti 2.172. (He who has not been initiated) should not
pronounce (any) Vedic text excepting (those required for) the
performance of funeral rites, since he is on a level with a Sudra
before his birth from the Veda.




So, what will be the castes of the sons of such a Vratya Brahmin (who has not received the Samskaras)? certainly not Brahmins , they will be Sudras (Vratyas) only.




16 Sons fathered by an uninitiated man are Vra¯tyas, excluded from initiation––so state the wise with equal reference to the three
classes.



Baudhayana Dharma Sutras 1.16.10




And, Samskaras are as many as 40 in number, starting from the Garbhadana, as stated in Gautama Smriti with Upanayana (initiation) being just one of the them.



And, to maintain the purity of caste system, as is mentioned in the Smritis, each of those Samskaras are to be performed in their prescribed times, generations after generations.



Assume that that has been done but the discussion does not end there.



Because, anyone can loose his caste by performing certain actions in his lifetime. And, it is quite easy for a Brahmin to loose his caste as well.




Manu Smriti 10.92. By (selling) flesh, salt, and lac a Brahmana at
once becomes an outcast; by selling milk he becomes (equal to) a Sudra
in three days.




In this case, what will you call the sons of this Brahmin who has become an outcast or a Sudra?



And, a Brahmin of bad conduct is also a Sudra or a Chandala. What will his sons be?




He who sets his face against righteousness, is but a Chandala by his
acts. He gains nothing by being a mendicant, or by worshipping the
household fire. (A Parashara Smriti verse)




Therefore, birth is only the first (and one) determining factor of caste, Samskaras and conduct being the other and more important factors.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Jan 15 at 8:55

























answered Jan 15 at 6:57









RickrossRickross

50.9k375184




50.9k375184








  • 1





    What you are referring to is Varna, not Jati. Varna is based on behavior while Jati is based on birth. Someone born as a Brahmana who isn't initiated is to be treated like a Shudra, which means the king can employee him in the works of Shudras, and he is excluded from all Yajnas, etc. But his Jati is still Brahmana. On the other hand, a Shudra who behaves like a Brahmana should be treated like one, but that doesn't mean he should get the Yajnopavitam or can intermarry with Brahmanas by Jati.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 15:57








  • 4





    So when u are referring to Brahmin in the Q wht does it refer to? Jati or Varna? Its called the Varnasrama and not Jatiasrama btw @Ikshvaku

    – Rickross
    Jan 15 at 16:22











  • If I understand it correctly, the Varna determines your birth in a particular caste. So if a Shudra, like Vidura, exhibits Brahmanical qualities, despite being born in a Shudra Jati, he will be born as Brahmana. And a Brahmana will be born as a Shudra if he neglects the Upanayanam, drinks, etc. Usually the Varna and Jati are consistent.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 16:32














  • 1





    What you are referring to is Varna, not Jati. Varna is based on behavior while Jati is based on birth. Someone born as a Brahmana who isn't initiated is to be treated like a Shudra, which means the king can employee him in the works of Shudras, and he is excluded from all Yajnas, etc. But his Jati is still Brahmana. On the other hand, a Shudra who behaves like a Brahmana should be treated like one, but that doesn't mean he should get the Yajnopavitam or can intermarry with Brahmanas by Jati.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 15:57








  • 4





    So when u are referring to Brahmin in the Q wht does it refer to? Jati or Varna? Its called the Varnasrama and not Jatiasrama btw @Ikshvaku

    – Rickross
    Jan 15 at 16:22











  • If I understand it correctly, the Varna determines your birth in a particular caste. So if a Shudra, like Vidura, exhibits Brahmanical qualities, despite being born in a Shudra Jati, he will be born as Brahmana. And a Brahmana will be born as a Shudra if he neglects the Upanayanam, drinks, etc. Usually the Varna and Jati are consistent.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 16:32








1




1





What you are referring to is Varna, not Jati. Varna is based on behavior while Jati is based on birth. Someone born as a Brahmana who isn't initiated is to be treated like a Shudra, which means the king can employee him in the works of Shudras, and he is excluded from all Yajnas, etc. But his Jati is still Brahmana. On the other hand, a Shudra who behaves like a Brahmana should be treated like one, but that doesn't mean he should get the Yajnopavitam or can intermarry with Brahmanas by Jati.

– Ikshvaku
Jan 15 at 15:57







What you are referring to is Varna, not Jati. Varna is based on behavior while Jati is based on birth. Someone born as a Brahmana who isn't initiated is to be treated like a Shudra, which means the king can employee him in the works of Shudras, and he is excluded from all Yajnas, etc. But his Jati is still Brahmana. On the other hand, a Shudra who behaves like a Brahmana should be treated like one, but that doesn't mean he should get the Yajnopavitam or can intermarry with Brahmanas by Jati.

– Ikshvaku
Jan 15 at 15:57






4




4





So when u are referring to Brahmin in the Q wht does it refer to? Jati or Varna? Its called the Varnasrama and not Jatiasrama btw @Ikshvaku

– Rickross
Jan 15 at 16:22





So when u are referring to Brahmin in the Q wht does it refer to? Jati or Varna? Its called the Varnasrama and not Jatiasrama btw @Ikshvaku

– Rickross
Jan 15 at 16:22













If I understand it correctly, the Varna determines your birth in a particular caste. So if a Shudra, like Vidura, exhibits Brahmanical qualities, despite being born in a Shudra Jati, he will be born as Brahmana. And a Brahmana will be born as a Shudra if he neglects the Upanayanam, drinks, etc. Usually the Varna and Jati are consistent.

– Ikshvaku
Jan 15 at 16:32





If I understand it correctly, the Varna determines your birth in a particular caste. So if a Shudra, like Vidura, exhibits Brahmanical qualities, despite being born in a Shudra Jati, he will be born as Brahmana. And a Brahmana will be born as a Shudra if he neglects the Upanayanam, drinks, etc. Usually the Varna and Jati are consistent.

– Ikshvaku
Jan 15 at 16:32











5














This is discussed in detail in Mahabharata.Vana Parva.Tirtha-yatra Parva. There is a conversation between Nahusha (in form of serpant), fifth in descent from the Moon and Yudhishthira:




The serpent said, 'O Yudhishthira, say--Who is a Brahmana and what should be known? By thy speech I infer thee to be highly intelligent.'




To answer this,




Yudhishthira said, 'O foremost of serpents, he, it is asserted by the wise, in whom are seen truth, charity, forgiveness, good conduct, benevolence, observance of the rites of his order and mercy is a Brahmana. And, O serpent, that which should be known is even the supreme Brahma, in which is neither happiness nor misery--and attaining which beings are not affected with misery; what is thy opinion?




Then, the serpent (Nahusha) objected this:




The serpent said, 'O Yudhishthira, truth, charity, forgiveness, benevolence, benignity, kindness and the Veda 1 which worketh the benefit of the four orders, which is the authority in matters of religion and which is true, are seen even in the Sudra. As regards the object to be known and which thou allegest is without both happiness and misery, I do not see any such that is devoid of these.'




The Yudhishthira replied




Yudhishthira said, Those characteristics that are present in a Sudra, do not exist in a Brahmana; nor do those that are in a Brahmana exist in a Sudra. And a Sudra is not a Sudra by birth alone--nor a Brahmana is Brahmana by birth alone. He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth. And again, as for thy assertion that the object to be known (as asserted by me) doth not exist, because nothing exists that is devoid of both (happiness and misery), such indeed is the opinion, O serpent, that nothing exists that is without (them) both. But as in cold, heat doth not exist, nor in heat, cold, so there cannot exist an object in which both (happiness and misery) cannot exist?"




The serpent (Nahusha) again objected:




The serpent said, 'O king, if thou recognise him as a Brahmana by characteristics, then, O long-lived one, the distinction of caste becometh futile as long as conduct doth not come into play.'




Yudhishthira then, replied




Yudhishthira said, 'In human society, O mighty and highly intelligent serpent, it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse among the four orders. This is my opinion. Men belonging to all orders (promiscuously) beget offspring upon women of all the orders. And of men, speech, sexual intercourse, birth and death are common. And to this the Rishis have borne testimony by using as the beginning of a sacrifice such expressions as--of what caste so ever we may be, we celebrate the sacrifice. Therefore, those that are wise have asserted that character is the chief essential requisite. The natal ceremony of a person is performed before division of the umbilical cord. His mother then acts as its Savitri and his father officiates as priest. He is considered as a Sudra as long as he is not initiated in the Vedas. Doubts having arisen on this point, O prince; of serpents, Swayambhuba Manu has declared, that the mixed castes are to be regarded as better than the (other) classes, if having gone through the ceremonies of purification, the latter do not conform to the rules of good conduct, O excellent snake! Whosoever now conforms to the rules of pure and virtuous conduct, him have I, ere now, designated as a Brahmana.'




With this answer the serpent (Nahusha) agreed and freed
Yudhishthira' s brother Bhima:




The serpent replied, 'O Yudhishthira, thou art acquainted with all that is fit to be known and having listened to thy words, how can I (now) eat up thy brother Vrikodara!"







share|improve this answer
























  • That Mahabharata passage is talking about the difference between Varna and Jati. Varna is based on behavior, whereas Jati is based on birth. Usually the Varna is consistent with the Jati. And that passage also acknowledges birth based caste: "He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth."

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 16:46






  • 2





    @Ikshvaku It's talking about both varna and jati, see it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse among the four orders..

    – Lakhi
    Jan 15 at 17:56











  • Nowadays that's the case; I would say most people today are outcastes due to thorough admixture.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 23:22






  • 2





    @Ikshvaku I didn't understand your first comment when you said "birth based caste". What do you mean by caste? The above passage only deals with jati and Varna. Secondly, Yudhisthir never recognises Varna is based on jati. The quote you mentioned, it's translation is inaccurate. Original verse nowhere mentions the word "birth". Thirdly serpent asks Yudhisthir whether Jati has any effect when conduct doesn't come into play. So it's clear when conduct is observable, jati is immaterial in determining Varna.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 3:52






  • 1





    @Ikshvaku Jati is not based on birth but jati's very meaning is birth / breed / clan. And chariot maker is not a caste. You don't call family of doctors to belong to doctor caste. You must learn the meaning of caste which was coined by British or simply use another word like jati because what you are saying is not making sense.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 16:15
















5














This is discussed in detail in Mahabharata.Vana Parva.Tirtha-yatra Parva. There is a conversation between Nahusha (in form of serpant), fifth in descent from the Moon and Yudhishthira:




The serpent said, 'O Yudhishthira, say--Who is a Brahmana and what should be known? By thy speech I infer thee to be highly intelligent.'




To answer this,




Yudhishthira said, 'O foremost of serpents, he, it is asserted by the wise, in whom are seen truth, charity, forgiveness, good conduct, benevolence, observance of the rites of his order and mercy is a Brahmana. And, O serpent, that which should be known is even the supreme Brahma, in which is neither happiness nor misery--and attaining which beings are not affected with misery; what is thy opinion?




Then, the serpent (Nahusha) objected this:




The serpent said, 'O Yudhishthira, truth, charity, forgiveness, benevolence, benignity, kindness and the Veda 1 which worketh the benefit of the four orders, which is the authority in matters of religion and which is true, are seen even in the Sudra. As regards the object to be known and which thou allegest is without both happiness and misery, I do not see any such that is devoid of these.'




The Yudhishthira replied




Yudhishthira said, Those characteristics that are present in a Sudra, do not exist in a Brahmana; nor do those that are in a Brahmana exist in a Sudra. And a Sudra is not a Sudra by birth alone--nor a Brahmana is Brahmana by birth alone. He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth. And again, as for thy assertion that the object to be known (as asserted by me) doth not exist, because nothing exists that is devoid of both (happiness and misery), such indeed is the opinion, O serpent, that nothing exists that is without (them) both. But as in cold, heat doth not exist, nor in heat, cold, so there cannot exist an object in which both (happiness and misery) cannot exist?"




The serpent (Nahusha) again objected:




The serpent said, 'O king, if thou recognise him as a Brahmana by characteristics, then, O long-lived one, the distinction of caste becometh futile as long as conduct doth not come into play.'




Yudhishthira then, replied




Yudhishthira said, 'In human society, O mighty and highly intelligent serpent, it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse among the four orders. This is my opinion. Men belonging to all orders (promiscuously) beget offspring upon women of all the orders. And of men, speech, sexual intercourse, birth and death are common. And to this the Rishis have borne testimony by using as the beginning of a sacrifice such expressions as--of what caste so ever we may be, we celebrate the sacrifice. Therefore, those that are wise have asserted that character is the chief essential requisite. The natal ceremony of a person is performed before division of the umbilical cord. His mother then acts as its Savitri and his father officiates as priest. He is considered as a Sudra as long as he is not initiated in the Vedas. Doubts having arisen on this point, O prince; of serpents, Swayambhuba Manu has declared, that the mixed castes are to be regarded as better than the (other) classes, if having gone through the ceremonies of purification, the latter do not conform to the rules of good conduct, O excellent snake! Whosoever now conforms to the rules of pure and virtuous conduct, him have I, ere now, designated as a Brahmana.'




With this answer the serpent (Nahusha) agreed and freed
Yudhishthira' s brother Bhima:




The serpent replied, 'O Yudhishthira, thou art acquainted with all that is fit to be known and having listened to thy words, how can I (now) eat up thy brother Vrikodara!"







share|improve this answer
























  • That Mahabharata passage is talking about the difference between Varna and Jati. Varna is based on behavior, whereas Jati is based on birth. Usually the Varna is consistent with the Jati. And that passage also acknowledges birth based caste: "He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth."

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 16:46






  • 2





    @Ikshvaku It's talking about both varna and jati, see it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse among the four orders..

    – Lakhi
    Jan 15 at 17:56











  • Nowadays that's the case; I would say most people today are outcastes due to thorough admixture.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 23:22






  • 2





    @Ikshvaku I didn't understand your first comment when you said "birth based caste". What do you mean by caste? The above passage only deals with jati and Varna. Secondly, Yudhisthir never recognises Varna is based on jati. The quote you mentioned, it's translation is inaccurate. Original verse nowhere mentions the word "birth". Thirdly serpent asks Yudhisthir whether Jati has any effect when conduct doesn't come into play. So it's clear when conduct is observable, jati is immaterial in determining Varna.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 3:52






  • 1





    @Ikshvaku Jati is not based on birth but jati's very meaning is birth / breed / clan. And chariot maker is not a caste. You don't call family of doctors to belong to doctor caste. You must learn the meaning of caste which was coined by British or simply use another word like jati because what you are saying is not making sense.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 16:15














5












5








5







This is discussed in detail in Mahabharata.Vana Parva.Tirtha-yatra Parva. There is a conversation between Nahusha (in form of serpant), fifth in descent from the Moon and Yudhishthira:




The serpent said, 'O Yudhishthira, say--Who is a Brahmana and what should be known? By thy speech I infer thee to be highly intelligent.'




To answer this,




Yudhishthira said, 'O foremost of serpents, he, it is asserted by the wise, in whom are seen truth, charity, forgiveness, good conduct, benevolence, observance of the rites of his order and mercy is a Brahmana. And, O serpent, that which should be known is even the supreme Brahma, in which is neither happiness nor misery--and attaining which beings are not affected with misery; what is thy opinion?




Then, the serpent (Nahusha) objected this:




The serpent said, 'O Yudhishthira, truth, charity, forgiveness, benevolence, benignity, kindness and the Veda 1 which worketh the benefit of the four orders, which is the authority in matters of religion and which is true, are seen even in the Sudra. As regards the object to be known and which thou allegest is without both happiness and misery, I do not see any such that is devoid of these.'




The Yudhishthira replied




Yudhishthira said, Those characteristics that are present in a Sudra, do not exist in a Brahmana; nor do those that are in a Brahmana exist in a Sudra. And a Sudra is not a Sudra by birth alone--nor a Brahmana is Brahmana by birth alone. He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth. And again, as for thy assertion that the object to be known (as asserted by me) doth not exist, because nothing exists that is devoid of both (happiness and misery), such indeed is the opinion, O serpent, that nothing exists that is without (them) both. But as in cold, heat doth not exist, nor in heat, cold, so there cannot exist an object in which both (happiness and misery) cannot exist?"




The serpent (Nahusha) again objected:




The serpent said, 'O king, if thou recognise him as a Brahmana by characteristics, then, O long-lived one, the distinction of caste becometh futile as long as conduct doth not come into play.'




Yudhishthira then, replied




Yudhishthira said, 'In human society, O mighty and highly intelligent serpent, it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse among the four orders. This is my opinion. Men belonging to all orders (promiscuously) beget offspring upon women of all the orders. And of men, speech, sexual intercourse, birth and death are common. And to this the Rishis have borne testimony by using as the beginning of a sacrifice such expressions as--of what caste so ever we may be, we celebrate the sacrifice. Therefore, those that are wise have asserted that character is the chief essential requisite. The natal ceremony of a person is performed before division of the umbilical cord. His mother then acts as its Savitri and his father officiates as priest. He is considered as a Sudra as long as he is not initiated in the Vedas. Doubts having arisen on this point, O prince; of serpents, Swayambhuba Manu has declared, that the mixed castes are to be regarded as better than the (other) classes, if having gone through the ceremonies of purification, the latter do not conform to the rules of good conduct, O excellent snake! Whosoever now conforms to the rules of pure and virtuous conduct, him have I, ere now, designated as a Brahmana.'




With this answer the serpent (Nahusha) agreed and freed
Yudhishthira' s brother Bhima:




The serpent replied, 'O Yudhishthira, thou art acquainted with all that is fit to be known and having listened to thy words, how can I (now) eat up thy brother Vrikodara!"







share|improve this answer













This is discussed in detail in Mahabharata.Vana Parva.Tirtha-yatra Parva. There is a conversation between Nahusha (in form of serpant), fifth in descent from the Moon and Yudhishthira:




The serpent said, 'O Yudhishthira, say--Who is a Brahmana and what should be known? By thy speech I infer thee to be highly intelligent.'




To answer this,




Yudhishthira said, 'O foremost of serpents, he, it is asserted by the wise, in whom are seen truth, charity, forgiveness, good conduct, benevolence, observance of the rites of his order and mercy is a Brahmana. And, O serpent, that which should be known is even the supreme Brahma, in which is neither happiness nor misery--and attaining which beings are not affected with misery; what is thy opinion?




Then, the serpent (Nahusha) objected this:




The serpent said, 'O Yudhishthira, truth, charity, forgiveness, benevolence, benignity, kindness and the Veda 1 which worketh the benefit of the four orders, which is the authority in matters of religion and which is true, are seen even in the Sudra. As regards the object to be known and which thou allegest is without both happiness and misery, I do not see any such that is devoid of these.'




The Yudhishthira replied




Yudhishthira said, Those characteristics that are present in a Sudra, do not exist in a Brahmana; nor do those that are in a Brahmana exist in a Sudra. And a Sudra is not a Sudra by birth alone--nor a Brahmana is Brahmana by birth alone. He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth. And again, as for thy assertion that the object to be known (as asserted by me) doth not exist, because nothing exists that is devoid of both (happiness and misery), such indeed is the opinion, O serpent, that nothing exists that is without (them) both. But as in cold, heat doth not exist, nor in heat, cold, so there cannot exist an object in which both (happiness and misery) cannot exist?"




The serpent (Nahusha) again objected:




The serpent said, 'O king, if thou recognise him as a Brahmana by characteristics, then, O long-lived one, the distinction of caste becometh futile as long as conduct doth not come into play.'




Yudhishthira then, replied




Yudhishthira said, 'In human society, O mighty and highly intelligent serpent, it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse among the four orders. This is my opinion. Men belonging to all orders (promiscuously) beget offspring upon women of all the orders. And of men, speech, sexual intercourse, birth and death are common. And to this the Rishis have borne testimony by using as the beginning of a sacrifice such expressions as--of what caste so ever we may be, we celebrate the sacrifice. Therefore, those that are wise have asserted that character is the chief essential requisite. The natal ceremony of a person is performed before division of the umbilical cord. His mother then acts as its Savitri and his father officiates as priest. He is considered as a Sudra as long as he is not initiated in the Vedas. Doubts having arisen on this point, O prince; of serpents, Swayambhuba Manu has declared, that the mixed castes are to be regarded as better than the (other) classes, if having gone through the ceremonies of purification, the latter do not conform to the rules of good conduct, O excellent snake! Whosoever now conforms to the rules of pure and virtuous conduct, him have I, ere now, designated as a Brahmana.'




With this answer the serpent (Nahusha) agreed and freed
Yudhishthira' s brother Bhima:




The serpent replied, 'O Yudhishthira, thou art acquainted with all that is fit to be known and having listened to thy words, how can I (now) eat up thy brother Vrikodara!"








share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Jan 15 at 16:45









LakhiLakhi

3418




3418













  • That Mahabharata passage is talking about the difference between Varna and Jati. Varna is based on behavior, whereas Jati is based on birth. Usually the Varna is consistent with the Jati. And that passage also acknowledges birth based caste: "He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth."

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 16:46






  • 2





    @Ikshvaku It's talking about both varna and jati, see it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse among the four orders..

    – Lakhi
    Jan 15 at 17:56











  • Nowadays that's the case; I would say most people today are outcastes due to thorough admixture.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 23:22






  • 2





    @Ikshvaku I didn't understand your first comment when you said "birth based caste". What do you mean by caste? The above passage only deals with jati and Varna. Secondly, Yudhisthir never recognises Varna is based on jati. The quote you mentioned, it's translation is inaccurate. Original verse nowhere mentions the word "birth". Thirdly serpent asks Yudhisthir whether Jati has any effect when conduct doesn't come into play. So it's clear when conduct is observable, jati is immaterial in determining Varna.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 3:52






  • 1





    @Ikshvaku Jati is not based on birth but jati's very meaning is birth / breed / clan. And chariot maker is not a caste. You don't call family of doctors to belong to doctor caste. You must learn the meaning of caste which was coined by British or simply use another word like jati because what you are saying is not making sense.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 16:15



















  • That Mahabharata passage is talking about the difference between Varna and Jati. Varna is based on behavior, whereas Jati is based on birth. Usually the Varna is consistent with the Jati. And that passage also acknowledges birth based caste: "He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth."

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 16:46






  • 2





    @Ikshvaku It's talking about both varna and jati, see it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse among the four orders..

    – Lakhi
    Jan 15 at 17:56











  • Nowadays that's the case; I would say most people today are outcastes due to thorough admixture.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 15 at 23:22






  • 2





    @Ikshvaku I didn't understand your first comment when you said "birth based caste". What do you mean by caste? The above passage only deals with jati and Varna. Secondly, Yudhisthir never recognises Varna is based on jati. The quote you mentioned, it's translation is inaccurate. Original verse nowhere mentions the word "birth". Thirdly serpent asks Yudhisthir whether Jati has any effect when conduct doesn't come into play. So it's clear when conduct is observable, jati is immaterial in determining Varna.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 3:52






  • 1





    @Ikshvaku Jati is not based on birth but jati's very meaning is birth / breed / clan. And chariot maker is not a caste. You don't call family of doctors to belong to doctor caste. You must learn the meaning of caste which was coined by British or simply use another word like jati because what you are saying is not making sense.

    – Lokesh
    Jan 17 at 16:15

















That Mahabharata passage is talking about the difference between Varna and Jati. Varna is based on behavior, whereas Jati is based on birth. Usually the Varna is consistent with the Jati. And that passage also acknowledges birth based caste: "He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth."

– Ikshvaku
Jan 15 at 16:46





That Mahabharata passage is talking about the difference between Varna and Jati. Varna is based on behavior, whereas Jati is based on birth. Usually the Varna is consistent with the Jati. And that passage also acknowledges birth based caste: "He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth."

– Ikshvaku
Jan 15 at 16:46




2




2





@Ikshvaku It's talking about both varna and jati, see it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse among the four orders..

– Lakhi
Jan 15 at 17:56





@Ikshvaku It's talking about both varna and jati, see it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse among the four orders..

– Lakhi
Jan 15 at 17:56













Nowadays that's the case; I would say most people today are outcastes due to thorough admixture.

– Ikshvaku
Jan 15 at 23:22





Nowadays that's the case; I would say most people today are outcastes due to thorough admixture.

– Ikshvaku
Jan 15 at 23:22




2




2





@Ikshvaku I didn't understand your first comment when you said "birth based caste". What do you mean by caste? The above passage only deals with jati and Varna. Secondly, Yudhisthir never recognises Varna is based on jati. The quote you mentioned, it's translation is inaccurate. Original verse nowhere mentions the word "birth". Thirdly serpent asks Yudhisthir whether Jati has any effect when conduct doesn't come into play. So it's clear when conduct is observable, jati is immaterial in determining Varna.

– Lokesh
Jan 17 at 3:52





@Ikshvaku I didn't understand your first comment when you said "birth based caste". What do you mean by caste? The above passage only deals with jati and Varna. Secondly, Yudhisthir never recognises Varna is based on jati. The quote you mentioned, it's translation is inaccurate. Original verse nowhere mentions the word "birth". Thirdly serpent asks Yudhisthir whether Jati has any effect when conduct doesn't come into play. So it's clear when conduct is observable, jati is immaterial in determining Varna.

– Lokesh
Jan 17 at 3:52




1




1





@Ikshvaku Jati is not based on birth but jati's very meaning is birth / breed / clan. And chariot maker is not a caste. You don't call family of doctors to belong to doctor caste. You must learn the meaning of caste which was coined by British or simply use another word like jati because what you are saying is not making sense.

– Lokesh
Jan 17 at 16:15





@Ikshvaku Jati is not based on birth but jati's very meaning is birth / breed / clan. And chariot maker is not a caste. You don't call family of doctors to belong to doctor caste. You must learn the meaning of caste which was coined by British or simply use another word like jati because what you are saying is not making sense.

– Lokesh
Jan 17 at 16:15











3














Yes, caste is based on birth. There is scriptural support for it.



Scriptural support:




Manusmriti (10.5).- In all castes (varna) those (children) only which
are begotten in the direct order on wedded wives, equal (in caste and
married as) virgins, are to be considered as belonging to the same
caste (as their fathers)



Āpastamba (2.13.1).—‘Sons begotten by a man who approaches in the
proper season a woman of equal caste, who has not belonged to another
man, and who has been married legally, have a right to follow the
occupations of their castes.’



Viṣṇu (16.1).—‘On women equal in caste to their husbands, sons are
begotten who are equal in caste to their fathers.’



Yājñavalkya (1.90).—‘From women of the same caste as their husbands
are born sons of the same caste.’



Baudhāyana (1.17.2).—‘Sons of equal caste spring from women of equal
caste.’




One thing consider is that the actual genetic makeup of the 4 castes are different. Brahmanas have Nadis in their body situated in such a way as to receive the vision of the Lord. Kshatriyas are genetically strong and physically fit. Vaishyas have a mind and body conducive for conducting business. Shudras are naturally pessimistic, lazy, simple-minded, and materialistic. That's how their bodies were constructed.



Source for Nadis in a Brahmana's body situated in a particular way:
https://youtu.be/dFEnxVfwqLE?t=2340
At 39:00 minutes in the video.






share|improve this answer















Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.










  • 4





    You should cite some source for "Brahmanas have Nadis.....That's how their bodies were constructed." and avoid scientific explanation i.e "the actual genetic makeup of the 4 castes are different"

    – Pandya
    Jan 16 at 14:00













  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Pandya
    Jan 16 at 14:02











  • @Pandya I will cite the video I heard this from. It is said by a great and recognized Vedic scholar. Also, when the Shastra talks about seed of men and women, it is a clear reference to what we know as genetics, since the sperm and egg cell (seed) contain 24 chromosomes respectively.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 16 at 14:02






  • 1





    @Pandya Can you unflag answer please, since I have added citations?

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 16 at 18:10
















3














Yes, caste is based on birth. There is scriptural support for it.



Scriptural support:




Manusmriti (10.5).- In all castes (varna) those (children) only which
are begotten in the direct order on wedded wives, equal (in caste and
married as) virgins, are to be considered as belonging to the same
caste (as their fathers)



Āpastamba (2.13.1).—‘Sons begotten by a man who approaches in the
proper season a woman of equal caste, who has not belonged to another
man, and who has been married legally, have a right to follow the
occupations of their castes.’



Viṣṇu (16.1).—‘On women equal in caste to their husbands, sons are
begotten who are equal in caste to their fathers.’



Yājñavalkya (1.90).—‘From women of the same caste as their husbands
are born sons of the same caste.’



Baudhāyana (1.17.2).—‘Sons of equal caste spring from women of equal
caste.’




One thing consider is that the actual genetic makeup of the 4 castes are different. Brahmanas have Nadis in their body situated in such a way as to receive the vision of the Lord. Kshatriyas are genetically strong and physically fit. Vaishyas have a mind and body conducive for conducting business. Shudras are naturally pessimistic, lazy, simple-minded, and materialistic. That's how their bodies were constructed.



Source for Nadis in a Brahmana's body situated in a particular way:
https://youtu.be/dFEnxVfwqLE?t=2340
At 39:00 minutes in the video.






share|improve this answer















Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.










  • 4





    You should cite some source for "Brahmanas have Nadis.....That's how their bodies were constructed." and avoid scientific explanation i.e "the actual genetic makeup of the 4 castes are different"

    – Pandya
    Jan 16 at 14:00













  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Pandya
    Jan 16 at 14:02











  • @Pandya I will cite the video I heard this from. It is said by a great and recognized Vedic scholar. Also, when the Shastra talks about seed of men and women, it is a clear reference to what we know as genetics, since the sperm and egg cell (seed) contain 24 chromosomes respectively.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 16 at 14:02






  • 1





    @Pandya Can you unflag answer please, since I have added citations?

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 16 at 18:10














3












3








3







Yes, caste is based on birth. There is scriptural support for it.



Scriptural support:




Manusmriti (10.5).- In all castes (varna) those (children) only which
are begotten in the direct order on wedded wives, equal (in caste and
married as) virgins, are to be considered as belonging to the same
caste (as their fathers)



Āpastamba (2.13.1).—‘Sons begotten by a man who approaches in the
proper season a woman of equal caste, who has not belonged to another
man, and who has been married legally, have a right to follow the
occupations of their castes.’



Viṣṇu (16.1).—‘On women equal in caste to their husbands, sons are
begotten who are equal in caste to their fathers.’



Yājñavalkya (1.90).—‘From women of the same caste as their husbands
are born sons of the same caste.’



Baudhāyana (1.17.2).—‘Sons of equal caste spring from women of equal
caste.’




One thing consider is that the actual genetic makeup of the 4 castes are different. Brahmanas have Nadis in their body situated in such a way as to receive the vision of the Lord. Kshatriyas are genetically strong and physically fit. Vaishyas have a mind and body conducive for conducting business. Shudras are naturally pessimistic, lazy, simple-minded, and materialistic. That's how their bodies were constructed.



Source for Nadis in a Brahmana's body situated in a particular way:
https://youtu.be/dFEnxVfwqLE?t=2340
At 39:00 minutes in the video.






share|improve this answer















Yes, caste is based on birth. There is scriptural support for it.



Scriptural support:




Manusmriti (10.5).- In all castes (varna) those (children) only which
are begotten in the direct order on wedded wives, equal (in caste and
married as) virgins, are to be considered as belonging to the same
caste (as their fathers)



Āpastamba (2.13.1).—‘Sons begotten by a man who approaches in the
proper season a woman of equal caste, who has not belonged to another
man, and who has been married legally, have a right to follow the
occupations of their castes.’



Viṣṇu (16.1).—‘On women equal in caste to their husbands, sons are
begotten who are equal in caste to their fathers.’



Yājñavalkya (1.90).—‘From women of the same caste as their husbands
are born sons of the same caste.’



Baudhāyana (1.17.2).—‘Sons of equal caste spring from women of equal
caste.’




One thing consider is that the actual genetic makeup of the 4 castes are different. Brahmanas have Nadis in their body situated in such a way as to receive the vision of the Lord. Kshatriyas are genetically strong and physically fit. Vaishyas have a mind and body conducive for conducting business. Shudras are naturally pessimistic, lazy, simple-minded, and materialistic. That's how their bodies were constructed.



Source for Nadis in a Brahmana's body situated in a particular way:
https://youtu.be/dFEnxVfwqLE?t=2340
At 39:00 minutes in the video.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Jan 16 at 14:10









The Destroyer

19.4k794205




19.4k794205










answered Jan 15 at 0:45









IkshvakuIkshvaku

4,827432




4,827432



Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.




Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.









  • 4





    You should cite some source for "Brahmanas have Nadis.....That's how their bodies were constructed." and avoid scientific explanation i.e "the actual genetic makeup of the 4 castes are different"

    – Pandya
    Jan 16 at 14:00













  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Pandya
    Jan 16 at 14:02











  • @Pandya I will cite the video I heard this from. It is said by a great and recognized Vedic scholar. Also, when the Shastra talks about seed of men and women, it is a clear reference to what we know as genetics, since the sperm and egg cell (seed) contain 24 chromosomes respectively.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 16 at 14:02






  • 1





    @Pandya Can you unflag answer please, since I have added citations?

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 16 at 18:10














  • 4





    You should cite some source for "Brahmanas have Nadis.....That's how their bodies were constructed." and avoid scientific explanation i.e "the actual genetic makeup of the 4 castes are different"

    – Pandya
    Jan 16 at 14:00













  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Pandya
    Jan 16 at 14:02











  • @Pandya I will cite the video I heard this from. It is said by a great and recognized Vedic scholar. Also, when the Shastra talks about seed of men and women, it is a clear reference to what we know as genetics, since the sperm and egg cell (seed) contain 24 chromosomes respectively.

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 16 at 14:02






  • 1





    @Pandya Can you unflag answer please, since I have added citations?

    – Ikshvaku
    Jan 16 at 18:10








4




4





You should cite some source for "Brahmanas have Nadis.....That's how their bodies were constructed." and avoid scientific explanation i.e "the actual genetic makeup of the 4 castes are different"

– Pandya
Jan 16 at 14:00







You should cite some source for "Brahmanas have Nadis.....That's how their bodies were constructed." and avoid scientific explanation i.e "the actual genetic makeup of the 4 castes are different"

– Pandya
Jan 16 at 14:00















Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

– Pandya
Jan 16 at 14:02





Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

– Pandya
Jan 16 at 14:02













@Pandya I will cite the video I heard this from. It is said by a great and recognized Vedic scholar. Also, when the Shastra talks about seed of men and women, it is a clear reference to what we know as genetics, since the sperm and egg cell (seed) contain 24 chromosomes respectively.

– Ikshvaku
Jan 16 at 14:02





@Pandya I will cite the video I heard this from. It is said by a great and recognized Vedic scholar. Also, when the Shastra talks about seed of men and women, it is a clear reference to what we know as genetics, since the sperm and egg cell (seed) contain 24 chromosomes respectively.

– Ikshvaku
Jan 16 at 14:02




1




1





@Pandya Can you unflag answer please, since I have added citations?

– Ikshvaku
Jan 16 at 18:10





@Pandya Can you unflag answer please, since I have added citations?

– Ikshvaku
Jan 16 at 18:10



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