When can a sum and integral be interchanged?
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Let's say I have $int_{0}^{infty}sum_{n = 0}^{infty} f_{n}(x), dx$ with $f_{n}(x)$ being continuous functions. When can interchange the integral and summation? Is $f_{n}(x) geq 0$ for all $x$ and for all $n$ sufficient? How about when $sum f_{n}(x)$ converges absolutely? If so why?
real-analysis analysis
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Let's say I have $int_{0}^{infty}sum_{n = 0}^{infty} f_{n}(x), dx$ with $f_{n}(x)$ being continuous functions. When can interchange the integral and summation? Is $f_{n}(x) geq 0$ for all $x$ and for all $n$ sufficient? How about when $sum f_{n}(x)$ converges absolutely? If so why?
real-analysis analysis
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I'm used to proving it capable with monotone convergence or the Lebesgue dominated convergence methods. But those are hardly sharp, I think. There are many versions of MC and LDC, so I don't know which you know.
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– davidlowryduda♦
Nov 19 '11 at 19:21
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Let's say I have $int_{0}^{infty}sum_{n = 0}^{infty} f_{n}(x), dx$ with $f_{n}(x)$ being continuous functions. When can interchange the integral and summation? Is $f_{n}(x) geq 0$ for all $x$ and for all $n$ sufficient? How about when $sum f_{n}(x)$ converges absolutely? If so why?
real-analysis analysis
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Let's say I have $int_{0}^{infty}sum_{n = 0}^{infty} f_{n}(x), dx$ with $f_{n}(x)$ being continuous functions. When can interchange the integral and summation? Is $f_{n}(x) geq 0$ for all $x$ and for all $n$ sufficient? How about when $sum f_{n}(x)$ converges absolutely? If so why?
real-analysis analysis
real-analysis analysis
asked Nov 19 '11 at 19:08
user192837user192837
538254
538254
3
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I'm used to proving it capable with monotone convergence or the Lebesgue dominated convergence methods. But those are hardly sharp, I think. There are many versions of MC and LDC, so I don't know which you know.
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– davidlowryduda♦
Nov 19 '11 at 19:21
add a comment |
3
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I'm used to proving it capable with monotone convergence or the Lebesgue dominated convergence methods. But those are hardly sharp, I think. There are many versions of MC and LDC, so I don't know which you know.
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– davidlowryduda♦
Nov 19 '11 at 19:21
3
3
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I'm used to proving it capable with monotone convergence or the Lebesgue dominated convergence methods. But those are hardly sharp, I think. There are many versions of MC and LDC, so I don't know which you know.
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– davidlowryduda♦
Nov 19 '11 at 19:21
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I'm used to proving it capable with monotone convergence or the Lebesgue dominated convergence methods. But those are hardly sharp, I think. There are many versions of MC and LDC, so I don't know which you know.
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– davidlowryduda♦
Nov 19 '11 at 19:21
add a comment |
3 Answers
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oldest
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I like to remember this as a special case of the Fubini/Tonelli theorems, where the measures are counting measure on $mathbb{N}$ and Lebesgue measure on $mathbb{R}$ (or $[0,infty)$ as you've written it here). In particular, Tonelli's theorem says if $f_n(x) ge 0$ for all $n,x$, then $$sum int f_n(x) dx = int sum f_n(x) dx$$ without any further conditions needed. (You can also prove this with the monotone convergence theorem.)
Then Fubini's theorem says that for general $f_n$, if $int sum |f_n| < infty$ or $sum int |f_n| < infty$ (by Tonelli the two conditions are equivalent), then $int sum f_n = sum int f_n$. (You can also prove this with the dominated convergence theorem.)
There may be weaker conditions that would also suffice, but these tend to work in 99% of cases.
Elaborating on request: the usual statement of Fubini's theorem goes something like this:
Let $(X,mathcal{F}, mu),(Y,mathcal{G}, nu)$ be $sigma$-finite measure spaces, and let $g : X times Y to mathbb{R}$ be measurable with respect to the product $sigma$-algebra $mathcal{F} otimes mathcal{G}$. Suppose that $int_X int_Y |g(x,y)| nu(dy) mu(dx)$ is finite. (Note: By Tonelli's theorem, this happens if and only if $int_Y int_X |g(x,y)|mu(dx)nu(dy)$ is finite, since both iterated integrals are equal.) Then $$int_X int_Y g(x,y) nu(dy)mu(dx) = int_Y int_X g(x,y) mu(dx) nu(dy).$$
Let $X = mathbb{R}$, $mathcal{F}$ the Borel $sigma$-algebra, and $mu$ Lebesgue measure. Let $Y = mathbb{N}$, $mathcal{G} = 2^{mathbb{N}}$ the discrete $sigma$-algebra, and $nu$ counting measure. Define $g(x,n) = f_n(x)$. Exercise: since each $f_n$ is measurable, verify that $g$ is measurable with respect to $mathcal{F} otimes mathcal{G}$. Exercise: verify that integration with respect to counting measure is the same as summation, where the integral exists and is finite iff the sum converges absolutely. (That is, given a sequence of real numbers $a_n$, define a function $b : mathbb{N} to mathbb{R}$ by $b(n) = a_n$. Then $int_{mathbb{N}} b,dnu = sum_{n=1}^infty a_n$.)
As such, the conclusion of Fubini's theorem reduces to the statement that was to be proved.
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I am a bit confused because first you say that $sum int f_n(x) dx=int sum f_n(x) dx$ holds if $f_n(x) geq 0$which implies that even if the double integral is not finite the equality does hold and then you quote the Fubini theorem which says that the two integrals are equal if the double integral is finite. I would be grateful if you could explain this to me? Its probably as very stupid question but it makes me very uncomfortable
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– user3503589
Nov 5 '14 at 9:24
1
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Yes, that's what I said - I'm not sure what part is confusing you? Notice that I did not say "if and only if"! The two theorems give two different hypotheses, each of which leads to the same conclusion. (And note carefully the appearance of the absolute value bars in the hypothesis of Fubini's theorem.)
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– Nate Eldredge
Nov 5 '14 at 14:48
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Ah that was my confusion. I was thinking of the case when $f_n(x) geq 0$ and $int sum f_n(x) to infty$ and therefore Fubini theorem would be invalid(but luckily as you mentioned, its not"if and only if". Thank you for clearing it up Nate, though it was a stupid question.
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– user3503589
Nov 6 '14 at 16:54
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Nate: Can you please point out a standard reference for "Fubini's theorem says that for general $f_n$, if $int sum |f_n| < infty$ or $sum int |f_n| < infty$ (by Tonelli the two conditions are equivalent), then $int sum f_n = sum int f_n$"?
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– user389066
Aug 15 '17 at 18:43
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@User31443: Are you looking for a reference for the usual general statement of Fubini's theorem (Folland's Real Analysis, for instance) or for how the general statement implies this special case? It is literally just the general case applied with Lebesgue measure and counting measure.
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– Nate Eldredge
Aug 15 '17 at 20:38
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show 7 more comments
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This is a theorem that will work:
Theorem. If ${f_n}_n$ is a positive sequence of integrable functions and $f = sum_n f_n$ then
$$int f = sum_n int f_n.$$
Proof. Consider first two functions, $f_1$ and $f_2$. We can now find sequences ${phi_j}_j$ and ${psi_j}_j$ of (nonnegative) simple functions by a basic theorem from measure theory that increase to $f_1$ and $f_2$ respectively. Obviously $phi_j + psi_j uparrow f_1 + f_2$. We can do the same for any finite sum.
Note that $int sum_1^N f_n = sum_1^N int f_n$ for any finite $N$. Now using the monotone convergence theorem we get
$$sum int f_n = int f.$$
Note 1: If you're talking about positive functions absolute convergence is the same as normal convergence as $|f_n| = f_n$.
Note 2: Continuous functions will be certainly integrable if they have compact support or tend to $0$ fast enough as $x to pm infty$.
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Just a little observation: you don't have say that $phi_juparrow f_1$ and $psi_juparrow f_2$.
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– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:44
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@leo Thanks! I have added this.
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– Jonas Teuwen
Nov 19 '11 at 19:46
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No problem Jonas
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– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:55
1
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@JonasTeuwen What does $phi_j uparrow f_1$ mean? I am not familiar with this notation.
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– Noir
Jun 17 '18 at 17:30
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It means that ${phi_j}$ is a monotonically non-decreasing sequence of functions which converges to $f_1$ pointwise.
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– Sean Haight
Oct 31 '18 at 15:40
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show 1 more comment
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While most of the time I would use the Fubini/Tonelli conditions, the dominated convergence theorem is actually strictly stronger in this mixed sum/integral case, because it can take into account the order structure of the integers. An example (that I first worked up back in 2009:
Consider the calculation
begin{align*}ln 2 &= int_0^1 frac1{1+x},dx = int_0^1sum_{n=0}^{infty} (-1)^n x^n,dx\
?&= sum_{n=0}^{infty}int_0^1(-1)^n x^n,dx = 1-frac12+frac13-frac14+cdotsend{align*}
Fubini's theorem isn't strong enough to justify the interchange. If we put absolute values on the terms, it blows up to $int_0^1 frac1{1-x},dx = 1+frac12+frac13+frac14+cdots=infty$.
On the other hand, the dominated convergence theorem cares about the partial sums $sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^n$. By the alternating series estimate,
$$0le sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^nle 1$$
for all $xin [0,1]$. $1$ is integrable on this interval, and the interchange
$$int_0^1left(lim_{Ntoinfty}sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^nright),dx = lim_{Ntoinfty}int_0^1 sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^n,dx$$
is justified, proving the result $1-frac12+frac13-frac14+cdots=ln 2$.
This situation with the dominated convergence theorem being stronger than Fubini's theorem can come up when we've got a reasonable bound on partial sums but not absolute convergence as a whole.
The monotone convergence theorem, on the other hand, is exactly the same as Tonelli's theorem - when everything's positive, either both sides are the same and finite or both sides are infinite.
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3 Answers
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$begingroup$
I like to remember this as a special case of the Fubini/Tonelli theorems, where the measures are counting measure on $mathbb{N}$ and Lebesgue measure on $mathbb{R}$ (or $[0,infty)$ as you've written it here). In particular, Tonelli's theorem says if $f_n(x) ge 0$ for all $n,x$, then $$sum int f_n(x) dx = int sum f_n(x) dx$$ without any further conditions needed. (You can also prove this with the monotone convergence theorem.)
Then Fubini's theorem says that for general $f_n$, if $int sum |f_n| < infty$ or $sum int |f_n| < infty$ (by Tonelli the two conditions are equivalent), then $int sum f_n = sum int f_n$. (You can also prove this with the dominated convergence theorem.)
There may be weaker conditions that would also suffice, but these tend to work in 99% of cases.
Elaborating on request: the usual statement of Fubini's theorem goes something like this:
Let $(X,mathcal{F}, mu),(Y,mathcal{G}, nu)$ be $sigma$-finite measure spaces, and let $g : X times Y to mathbb{R}$ be measurable with respect to the product $sigma$-algebra $mathcal{F} otimes mathcal{G}$. Suppose that $int_X int_Y |g(x,y)| nu(dy) mu(dx)$ is finite. (Note: By Tonelli's theorem, this happens if and only if $int_Y int_X |g(x,y)|mu(dx)nu(dy)$ is finite, since both iterated integrals are equal.) Then $$int_X int_Y g(x,y) nu(dy)mu(dx) = int_Y int_X g(x,y) mu(dx) nu(dy).$$
Let $X = mathbb{R}$, $mathcal{F}$ the Borel $sigma$-algebra, and $mu$ Lebesgue measure. Let $Y = mathbb{N}$, $mathcal{G} = 2^{mathbb{N}}$ the discrete $sigma$-algebra, and $nu$ counting measure. Define $g(x,n) = f_n(x)$. Exercise: since each $f_n$ is measurable, verify that $g$ is measurable with respect to $mathcal{F} otimes mathcal{G}$. Exercise: verify that integration with respect to counting measure is the same as summation, where the integral exists and is finite iff the sum converges absolutely. (That is, given a sequence of real numbers $a_n$, define a function $b : mathbb{N} to mathbb{R}$ by $b(n) = a_n$. Then $int_{mathbb{N}} b,dnu = sum_{n=1}^infty a_n$.)
As such, the conclusion of Fubini's theorem reduces to the statement that was to be proved.
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I am a bit confused because first you say that $sum int f_n(x) dx=int sum f_n(x) dx$ holds if $f_n(x) geq 0$which implies that even if the double integral is not finite the equality does hold and then you quote the Fubini theorem which says that the two integrals are equal if the double integral is finite. I would be grateful if you could explain this to me? Its probably as very stupid question but it makes me very uncomfortable
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– user3503589
Nov 5 '14 at 9:24
1
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Yes, that's what I said - I'm not sure what part is confusing you? Notice that I did not say "if and only if"! The two theorems give two different hypotheses, each of which leads to the same conclusion. (And note carefully the appearance of the absolute value bars in the hypothesis of Fubini's theorem.)
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– Nate Eldredge
Nov 5 '14 at 14:48
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Ah that was my confusion. I was thinking of the case when $f_n(x) geq 0$ and $int sum f_n(x) to infty$ and therefore Fubini theorem would be invalid(but luckily as you mentioned, its not"if and only if". Thank you for clearing it up Nate, though it was a stupid question.
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– user3503589
Nov 6 '14 at 16:54
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Nate: Can you please point out a standard reference for "Fubini's theorem says that for general $f_n$, if $int sum |f_n| < infty$ or $sum int |f_n| < infty$ (by Tonelli the two conditions are equivalent), then $int sum f_n = sum int f_n$"?
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– user389066
Aug 15 '17 at 18:43
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@User31443: Are you looking for a reference for the usual general statement of Fubini's theorem (Folland's Real Analysis, for instance) or for how the general statement implies this special case? It is literally just the general case applied with Lebesgue measure and counting measure.
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– Nate Eldredge
Aug 15 '17 at 20:38
|
show 7 more comments
$begingroup$
I like to remember this as a special case of the Fubini/Tonelli theorems, where the measures are counting measure on $mathbb{N}$ and Lebesgue measure on $mathbb{R}$ (or $[0,infty)$ as you've written it here). In particular, Tonelli's theorem says if $f_n(x) ge 0$ for all $n,x$, then $$sum int f_n(x) dx = int sum f_n(x) dx$$ without any further conditions needed. (You can also prove this with the monotone convergence theorem.)
Then Fubini's theorem says that for general $f_n$, if $int sum |f_n| < infty$ or $sum int |f_n| < infty$ (by Tonelli the two conditions are equivalent), then $int sum f_n = sum int f_n$. (You can also prove this with the dominated convergence theorem.)
There may be weaker conditions that would also suffice, but these tend to work in 99% of cases.
Elaborating on request: the usual statement of Fubini's theorem goes something like this:
Let $(X,mathcal{F}, mu),(Y,mathcal{G}, nu)$ be $sigma$-finite measure spaces, and let $g : X times Y to mathbb{R}$ be measurable with respect to the product $sigma$-algebra $mathcal{F} otimes mathcal{G}$. Suppose that $int_X int_Y |g(x,y)| nu(dy) mu(dx)$ is finite. (Note: By Tonelli's theorem, this happens if and only if $int_Y int_X |g(x,y)|mu(dx)nu(dy)$ is finite, since both iterated integrals are equal.) Then $$int_X int_Y g(x,y) nu(dy)mu(dx) = int_Y int_X g(x,y) mu(dx) nu(dy).$$
Let $X = mathbb{R}$, $mathcal{F}$ the Borel $sigma$-algebra, and $mu$ Lebesgue measure. Let $Y = mathbb{N}$, $mathcal{G} = 2^{mathbb{N}}$ the discrete $sigma$-algebra, and $nu$ counting measure. Define $g(x,n) = f_n(x)$. Exercise: since each $f_n$ is measurable, verify that $g$ is measurable with respect to $mathcal{F} otimes mathcal{G}$. Exercise: verify that integration with respect to counting measure is the same as summation, where the integral exists and is finite iff the sum converges absolutely. (That is, given a sequence of real numbers $a_n$, define a function $b : mathbb{N} to mathbb{R}$ by $b(n) = a_n$. Then $int_{mathbb{N}} b,dnu = sum_{n=1}^infty a_n$.)
As such, the conclusion of Fubini's theorem reduces to the statement that was to be proved.
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$begingroup$
I am a bit confused because first you say that $sum int f_n(x) dx=int sum f_n(x) dx$ holds if $f_n(x) geq 0$which implies that even if the double integral is not finite the equality does hold and then you quote the Fubini theorem which says that the two integrals are equal if the double integral is finite. I would be grateful if you could explain this to me? Its probably as very stupid question but it makes me very uncomfortable
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– user3503589
Nov 5 '14 at 9:24
1
$begingroup$
Yes, that's what I said - I'm not sure what part is confusing you? Notice that I did not say "if and only if"! The two theorems give two different hypotheses, each of which leads to the same conclusion. (And note carefully the appearance of the absolute value bars in the hypothesis of Fubini's theorem.)
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– Nate Eldredge
Nov 5 '14 at 14:48
$begingroup$
Ah that was my confusion. I was thinking of the case when $f_n(x) geq 0$ and $int sum f_n(x) to infty$ and therefore Fubini theorem would be invalid(but luckily as you mentioned, its not"if and only if". Thank you for clearing it up Nate, though it was a stupid question.
$endgroup$
– user3503589
Nov 6 '14 at 16:54
$begingroup$
Nate: Can you please point out a standard reference for "Fubini's theorem says that for general $f_n$, if $int sum |f_n| < infty$ or $sum int |f_n| < infty$ (by Tonelli the two conditions are equivalent), then $int sum f_n = sum int f_n$"?
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– user389066
Aug 15 '17 at 18:43
$begingroup$
@User31443: Are you looking for a reference for the usual general statement of Fubini's theorem (Folland's Real Analysis, for instance) or for how the general statement implies this special case? It is literally just the general case applied with Lebesgue measure and counting measure.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
Aug 15 '17 at 20:38
|
show 7 more comments
$begingroup$
I like to remember this as a special case of the Fubini/Tonelli theorems, where the measures are counting measure on $mathbb{N}$ and Lebesgue measure on $mathbb{R}$ (or $[0,infty)$ as you've written it here). In particular, Tonelli's theorem says if $f_n(x) ge 0$ for all $n,x$, then $$sum int f_n(x) dx = int sum f_n(x) dx$$ without any further conditions needed. (You can also prove this with the monotone convergence theorem.)
Then Fubini's theorem says that for general $f_n$, if $int sum |f_n| < infty$ or $sum int |f_n| < infty$ (by Tonelli the two conditions are equivalent), then $int sum f_n = sum int f_n$. (You can also prove this with the dominated convergence theorem.)
There may be weaker conditions that would also suffice, but these tend to work in 99% of cases.
Elaborating on request: the usual statement of Fubini's theorem goes something like this:
Let $(X,mathcal{F}, mu),(Y,mathcal{G}, nu)$ be $sigma$-finite measure spaces, and let $g : X times Y to mathbb{R}$ be measurable with respect to the product $sigma$-algebra $mathcal{F} otimes mathcal{G}$. Suppose that $int_X int_Y |g(x,y)| nu(dy) mu(dx)$ is finite. (Note: By Tonelli's theorem, this happens if and only if $int_Y int_X |g(x,y)|mu(dx)nu(dy)$ is finite, since both iterated integrals are equal.) Then $$int_X int_Y g(x,y) nu(dy)mu(dx) = int_Y int_X g(x,y) mu(dx) nu(dy).$$
Let $X = mathbb{R}$, $mathcal{F}$ the Borel $sigma$-algebra, and $mu$ Lebesgue measure. Let $Y = mathbb{N}$, $mathcal{G} = 2^{mathbb{N}}$ the discrete $sigma$-algebra, and $nu$ counting measure. Define $g(x,n) = f_n(x)$. Exercise: since each $f_n$ is measurable, verify that $g$ is measurable with respect to $mathcal{F} otimes mathcal{G}$. Exercise: verify that integration with respect to counting measure is the same as summation, where the integral exists and is finite iff the sum converges absolutely. (That is, given a sequence of real numbers $a_n$, define a function $b : mathbb{N} to mathbb{R}$ by $b(n) = a_n$. Then $int_{mathbb{N}} b,dnu = sum_{n=1}^infty a_n$.)
As such, the conclusion of Fubini's theorem reduces to the statement that was to be proved.
$endgroup$
I like to remember this as a special case of the Fubini/Tonelli theorems, where the measures are counting measure on $mathbb{N}$ and Lebesgue measure on $mathbb{R}$ (or $[0,infty)$ as you've written it here). In particular, Tonelli's theorem says if $f_n(x) ge 0$ for all $n,x$, then $$sum int f_n(x) dx = int sum f_n(x) dx$$ without any further conditions needed. (You can also prove this with the monotone convergence theorem.)
Then Fubini's theorem says that for general $f_n$, if $int sum |f_n| < infty$ or $sum int |f_n| < infty$ (by Tonelli the two conditions are equivalent), then $int sum f_n = sum int f_n$. (You can also prove this with the dominated convergence theorem.)
There may be weaker conditions that would also suffice, but these tend to work in 99% of cases.
Elaborating on request: the usual statement of Fubini's theorem goes something like this:
Let $(X,mathcal{F}, mu),(Y,mathcal{G}, nu)$ be $sigma$-finite measure spaces, and let $g : X times Y to mathbb{R}$ be measurable with respect to the product $sigma$-algebra $mathcal{F} otimes mathcal{G}$. Suppose that $int_X int_Y |g(x,y)| nu(dy) mu(dx)$ is finite. (Note: By Tonelli's theorem, this happens if and only if $int_Y int_X |g(x,y)|mu(dx)nu(dy)$ is finite, since both iterated integrals are equal.) Then $$int_X int_Y g(x,y) nu(dy)mu(dx) = int_Y int_X g(x,y) mu(dx) nu(dy).$$
Let $X = mathbb{R}$, $mathcal{F}$ the Borel $sigma$-algebra, and $mu$ Lebesgue measure. Let $Y = mathbb{N}$, $mathcal{G} = 2^{mathbb{N}}$ the discrete $sigma$-algebra, and $nu$ counting measure. Define $g(x,n) = f_n(x)$. Exercise: since each $f_n$ is measurable, verify that $g$ is measurable with respect to $mathcal{F} otimes mathcal{G}$. Exercise: verify that integration with respect to counting measure is the same as summation, where the integral exists and is finite iff the sum converges absolutely. (That is, given a sequence of real numbers $a_n$, define a function $b : mathbb{N} to mathbb{R}$ by $b(n) = a_n$. Then $int_{mathbb{N}} b,dnu = sum_{n=1}^infty a_n$.)
As such, the conclusion of Fubini's theorem reduces to the statement that was to be proved.
edited Aug 15 '17 at 20:58
answered Nov 19 '11 at 21:32
Nate EldredgeNate Eldredge
62.6k682170
62.6k682170
$begingroup$
I am a bit confused because first you say that $sum int f_n(x) dx=int sum f_n(x) dx$ holds if $f_n(x) geq 0$which implies that even if the double integral is not finite the equality does hold and then you quote the Fubini theorem which says that the two integrals are equal if the double integral is finite. I would be grateful if you could explain this to me? Its probably as very stupid question but it makes me very uncomfortable
$endgroup$
– user3503589
Nov 5 '14 at 9:24
1
$begingroup$
Yes, that's what I said - I'm not sure what part is confusing you? Notice that I did not say "if and only if"! The two theorems give two different hypotheses, each of which leads to the same conclusion. (And note carefully the appearance of the absolute value bars in the hypothesis of Fubini's theorem.)
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
Nov 5 '14 at 14:48
$begingroup$
Ah that was my confusion. I was thinking of the case when $f_n(x) geq 0$ and $int sum f_n(x) to infty$ and therefore Fubini theorem would be invalid(but luckily as you mentioned, its not"if and only if". Thank you for clearing it up Nate, though it was a stupid question.
$endgroup$
– user3503589
Nov 6 '14 at 16:54
$begingroup$
Nate: Can you please point out a standard reference for "Fubini's theorem says that for general $f_n$, if $int sum |f_n| < infty$ or $sum int |f_n| < infty$ (by Tonelli the two conditions are equivalent), then $int sum f_n = sum int f_n$"?
$endgroup$
– user389066
Aug 15 '17 at 18:43
$begingroup$
@User31443: Are you looking for a reference for the usual general statement of Fubini's theorem (Folland's Real Analysis, for instance) or for how the general statement implies this special case? It is literally just the general case applied with Lebesgue measure and counting measure.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
Aug 15 '17 at 20:38
|
show 7 more comments
$begingroup$
I am a bit confused because first you say that $sum int f_n(x) dx=int sum f_n(x) dx$ holds if $f_n(x) geq 0$which implies that even if the double integral is not finite the equality does hold and then you quote the Fubini theorem which says that the two integrals are equal if the double integral is finite. I would be grateful if you could explain this to me? Its probably as very stupid question but it makes me very uncomfortable
$endgroup$
– user3503589
Nov 5 '14 at 9:24
1
$begingroup$
Yes, that's what I said - I'm not sure what part is confusing you? Notice that I did not say "if and only if"! The two theorems give two different hypotheses, each of which leads to the same conclusion. (And note carefully the appearance of the absolute value bars in the hypothesis of Fubini's theorem.)
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
Nov 5 '14 at 14:48
$begingroup$
Ah that was my confusion. I was thinking of the case when $f_n(x) geq 0$ and $int sum f_n(x) to infty$ and therefore Fubini theorem would be invalid(but luckily as you mentioned, its not"if and only if". Thank you for clearing it up Nate, though it was a stupid question.
$endgroup$
– user3503589
Nov 6 '14 at 16:54
$begingroup$
Nate: Can you please point out a standard reference for "Fubini's theorem says that for general $f_n$, if $int sum |f_n| < infty$ or $sum int |f_n| < infty$ (by Tonelli the two conditions are equivalent), then $int sum f_n = sum int f_n$"?
$endgroup$
– user389066
Aug 15 '17 at 18:43
$begingroup$
@User31443: Are you looking for a reference for the usual general statement of Fubini's theorem (Folland's Real Analysis, for instance) or for how the general statement implies this special case? It is literally just the general case applied with Lebesgue measure and counting measure.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
Aug 15 '17 at 20:38
$begingroup$
I am a bit confused because first you say that $sum int f_n(x) dx=int sum f_n(x) dx$ holds if $f_n(x) geq 0$which implies that even if the double integral is not finite the equality does hold and then you quote the Fubini theorem which says that the two integrals are equal if the double integral is finite. I would be grateful if you could explain this to me? Its probably as very stupid question but it makes me very uncomfortable
$endgroup$
– user3503589
Nov 5 '14 at 9:24
$begingroup$
I am a bit confused because first you say that $sum int f_n(x) dx=int sum f_n(x) dx$ holds if $f_n(x) geq 0$which implies that even if the double integral is not finite the equality does hold and then you quote the Fubini theorem which says that the two integrals are equal if the double integral is finite. I would be grateful if you could explain this to me? Its probably as very stupid question but it makes me very uncomfortable
$endgroup$
– user3503589
Nov 5 '14 at 9:24
1
1
$begingroup$
Yes, that's what I said - I'm not sure what part is confusing you? Notice that I did not say "if and only if"! The two theorems give two different hypotheses, each of which leads to the same conclusion. (And note carefully the appearance of the absolute value bars in the hypothesis of Fubini's theorem.)
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
Nov 5 '14 at 14:48
$begingroup$
Yes, that's what I said - I'm not sure what part is confusing you? Notice that I did not say "if and only if"! The two theorems give two different hypotheses, each of which leads to the same conclusion. (And note carefully the appearance of the absolute value bars in the hypothesis of Fubini's theorem.)
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
Nov 5 '14 at 14:48
$begingroup$
Ah that was my confusion. I was thinking of the case when $f_n(x) geq 0$ and $int sum f_n(x) to infty$ and therefore Fubini theorem would be invalid(but luckily as you mentioned, its not"if and only if". Thank you for clearing it up Nate, though it was a stupid question.
$endgroup$
– user3503589
Nov 6 '14 at 16:54
$begingroup$
Ah that was my confusion. I was thinking of the case when $f_n(x) geq 0$ and $int sum f_n(x) to infty$ and therefore Fubini theorem would be invalid(but luckily as you mentioned, its not"if and only if". Thank you for clearing it up Nate, though it was a stupid question.
$endgroup$
– user3503589
Nov 6 '14 at 16:54
$begingroup$
Nate: Can you please point out a standard reference for "Fubini's theorem says that for general $f_n$, if $int sum |f_n| < infty$ or $sum int |f_n| < infty$ (by Tonelli the two conditions are equivalent), then $int sum f_n = sum int f_n$"?
$endgroup$
– user389066
Aug 15 '17 at 18:43
$begingroup$
Nate: Can you please point out a standard reference for "Fubini's theorem says that for general $f_n$, if $int sum |f_n| < infty$ or $sum int |f_n| < infty$ (by Tonelli the two conditions are equivalent), then $int sum f_n = sum int f_n$"?
$endgroup$
– user389066
Aug 15 '17 at 18:43
$begingroup$
@User31443: Are you looking for a reference for the usual general statement of Fubini's theorem (Folland's Real Analysis, for instance) or for how the general statement implies this special case? It is literally just the general case applied with Lebesgue measure and counting measure.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
Aug 15 '17 at 20:38
$begingroup$
@User31443: Are you looking for a reference for the usual general statement of Fubini's theorem (Folland's Real Analysis, for instance) or for how the general statement implies this special case? It is literally just the general case applied with Lebesgue measure and counting measure.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
Aug 15 '17 at 20:38
|
show 7 more comments
$begingroup$
This is a theorem that will work:
Theorem. If ${f_n}_n$ is a positive sequence of integrable functions and $f = sum_n f_n$ then
$$int f = sum_n int f_n.$$
Proof. Consider first two functions, $f_1$ and $f_2$. We can now find sequences ${phi_j}_j$ and ${psi_j}_j$ of (nonnegative) simple functions by a basic theorem from measure theory that increase to $f_1$ and $f_2$ respectively. Obviously $phi_j + psi_j uparrow f_1 + f_2$. We can do the same for any finite sum.
Note that $int sum_1^N f_n = sum_1^N int f_n$ for any finite $N$. Now using the monotone convergence theorem we get
$$sum int f_n = int f.$$
Note 1: If you're talking about positive functions absolute convergence is the same as normal convergence as $|f_n| = f_n$.
Note 2: Continuous functions will be certainly integrable if they have compact support or tend to $0$ fast enough as $x to pm infty$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Just a little observation: you don't have say that $phi_juparrow f_1$ and $psi_juparrow f_2$.
$endgroup$
– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:44
$begingroup$
@leo Thanks! I have added this.
$endgroup$
– Jonas Teuwen
Nov 19 '11 at 19:46
$begingroup$
No problem Jonas
$endgroup$
– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:55
1
$begingroup$
@JonasTeuwen What does $phi_j uparrow f_1$ mean? I am not familiar with this notation.
$endgroup$
– Noir
Jun 17 '18 at 17:30
$begingroup$
It means that ${phi_j}$ is a monotonically non-decreasing sequence of functions which converges to $f_1$ pointwise.
$endgroup$
– Sean Haight
Oct 31 '18 at 15:40
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
This is a theorem that will work:
Theorem. If ${f_n}_n$ is a positive sequence of integrable functions and $f = sum_n f_n$ then
$$int f = sum_n int f_n.$$
Proof. Consider first two functions, $f_1$ and $f_2$. We can now find sequences ${phi_j}_j$ and ${psi_j}_j$ of (nonnegative) simple functions by a basic theorem from measure theory that increase to $f_1$ and $f_2$ respectively. Obviously $phi_j + psi_j uparrow f_1 + f_2$. We can do the same for any finite sum.
Note that $int sum_1^N f_n = sum_1^N int f_n$ for any finite $N$. Now using the monotone convergence theorem we get
$$sum int f_n = int f.$$
Note 1: If you're talking about positive functions absolute convergence is the same as normal convergence as $|f_n| = f_n$.
Note 2: Continuous functions will be certainly integrable if they have compact support or tend to $0$ fast enough as $x to pm infty$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Just a little observation: you don't have say that $phi_juparrow f_1$ and $psi_juparrow f_2$.
$endgroup$
– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:44
$begingroup$
@leo Thanks! I have added this.
$endgroup$
– Jonas Teuwen
Nov 19 '11 at 19:46
$begingroup$
No problem Jonas
$endgroup$
– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:55
1
$begingroup$
@JonasTeuwen What does $phi_j uparrow f_1$ mean? I am not familiar with this notation.
$endgroup$
– Noir
Jun 17 '18 at 17:30
$begingroup$
It means that ${phi_j}$ is a monotonically non-decreasing sequence of functions which converges to $f_1$ pointwise.
$endgroup$
– Sean Haight
Oct 31 '18 at 15:40
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
This is a theorem that will work:
Theorem. If ${f_n}_n$ is a positive sequence of integrable functions and $f = sum_n f_n$ then
$$int f = sum_n int f_n.$$
Proof. Consider first two functions, $f_1$ and $f_2$. We can now find sequences ${phi_j}_j$ and ${psi_j}_j$ of (nonnegative) simple functions by a basic theorem from measure theory that increase to $f_1$ and $f_2$ respectively. Obviously $phi_j + psi_j uparrow f_1 + f_2$. We can do the same for any finite sum.
Note that $int sum_1^N f_n = sum_1^N int f_n$ for any finite $N$. Now using the monotone convergence theorem we get
$$sum int f_n = int f.$$
Note 1: If you're talking about positive functions absolute convergence is the same as normal convergence as $|f_n| = f_n$.
Note 2: Continuous functions will be certainly integrable if they have compact support or tend to $0$ fast enough as $x to pm infty$.
$endgroup$
This is a theorem that will work:
Theorem. If ${f_n}_n$ is a positive sequence of integrable functions and $f = sum_n f_n$ then
$$int f = sum_n int f_n.$$
Proof. Consider first two functions, $f_1$ and $f_2$. We can now find sequences ${phi_j}_j$ and ${psi_j}_j$ of (nonnegative) simple functions by a basic theorem from measure theory that increase to $f_1$ and $f_2$ respectively. Obviously $phi_j + psi_j uparrow f_1 + f_2$. We can do the same for any finite sum.
Note that $int sum_1^N f_n = sum_1^N int f_n$ for any finite $N$. Now using the monotone convergence theorem we get
$$sum int f_n = int f.$$
Note 1: If you're talking about positive functions absolute convergence is the same as normal convergence as $|f_n| = f_n$.
Note 2: Continuous functions will be certainly integrable if they have compact support or tend to $0$ fast enough as $x to pm infty$.
edited Nov 19 '11 at 19:46
answered Nov 19 '11 at 19:24
Jonas TeuwenJonas Teuwen
9,53644676
9,53644676
$begingroup$
Just a little observation: you don't have say that $phi_juparrow f_1$ and $psi_juparrow f_2$.
$endgroup$
– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:44
$begingroup$
@leo Thanks! I have added this.
$endgroup$
– Jonas Teuwen
Nov 19 '11 at 19:46
$begingroup$
No problem Jonas
$endgroup$
– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:55
1
$begingroup$
@JonasTeuwen What does $phi_j uparrow f_1$ mean? I am not familiar with this notation.
$endgroup$
– Noir
Jun 17 '18 at 17:30
$begingroup$
It means that ${phi_j}$ is a monotonically non-decreasing sequence of functions which converges to $f_1$ pointwise.
$endgroup$
– Sean Haight
Oct 31 '18 at 15:40
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Just a little observation: you don't have say that $phi_juparrow f_1$ and $psi_juparrow f_2$.
$endgroup$
– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:44
$begingroup$
@leo Thanks! I have added this.
$endgroup$
– Jonas Teuwen
Nov 19 '11 at 19:46
$begingroup$
No problem Jonas
$endgroup$
– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:55
1
$begingroup$
@JonasTeuwen What does $phi_j uparrow f_1$ mean? I am not familiar with this notation.
$endgroup$
– Noir
Jun 17 '18 at 17:30
$begingroup$
It means that ${phi_j}$ is a monotonically non-decreasing sequence of functions which converges to $f_1$ pointwise.
$endgroup$
– Sean Haight
Oct 31 '18 at 15:40
$begingroup$
Just a little observation: you don't have say that $phi_juparrow f_1$ and $psi_juparrow f_2$.
$endgroup$
– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:44
$begingroup$
Just a little observation: you don't have say that $phi_juparrow f_1$ and $psi_juparrow f_2$.
$endgroup$
– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:44
$begingroup$
@leo Thanks! I have added this.
$endgroup$
– Jonas Teuwen
Nov 19 '11 at 19:46
$begingroup$
@leo Thanks! I have added this.
$endgroup$
– Jonas Teuwen
Nov 19 '11 at 19:46
$begingroup$
No problem Jonas
$endgroup$
– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:55
$begingroup$
No problem Jonas
$endgroup$
– leo
Nov 19 '11 at 19:55
1
1
$begingroup$
@JonasTeuwen What does $phi_j uparrow f_1$ mean? I am not familiar with this notation.
$endgroup$
– Noir
Jun 17 '18 at 17:30
$begingroup$
@JonasTeuwen What does $phi_j uparrow f_1$ mean? I am not familiar with this notation.
$endgroup$
– Noir
Jun 17 '18 at 17:30
$begingroup$
It means that ${phi_j}$ is a monotonically non-decreasing sequence of functions which converges to $f_1$ pointwise.
$endgroup$
– Sean Haight
Oct 31 '18 at 15:40
$begingroup$
It means that ${phi_j}$ is a monotonically non-decreasing sequence of functions which converges to $f_1$ pointwise.
$endgroup$
– Sean Haight
Oct 31 '18 at 15:40
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
While most of the time I would use the Fubini/Tonelli conditions, the dominated convergence theorem is actually strictly stronger in this mixed sum/integral case, because it can take into account the order structure of the integers. An example (that I first worked up back in 2009:
Consider the calculation
begin{align*}ln 2 &= int_0^1 frac1{1+x},dx = int_0^1sum_{n=0}^{infty} (-1)^n x^n,dx\
?&= sum_{n=0}^{infty}int_0^1(-1)^n x^n,dx = 1-frac12+frac13-frac14+cdotsend{align*}
Fubini's theorem isn't strong enough to justify the interchange. If we put absolute values on the terms, it blows up to $int_0^1 frac1{1-x},dx = 1+frac12+frac13+frac14+cdots=infty$.
On the other hand, the dominated convergence theorem cares about the partial sums $sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^n$. By the alternating series estimate,
$$0le sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^nle 1$$
for all $xin [0,1]$. $1$ is integrable on this interval, and the interchange
$$int_0^1left(lim_{Ntoinfty}sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^nright),dx = lim_{Ntoinfty}int_0^1 sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^n,dx$$
is justified, proving the result $1-frac12+frac13-frac14+cdots=ln 2$.
This situation with the dominated convergence theorem being stronger than Fubini's theorem can come up when we've got a reasonable bound on partial sums but not absolute convergence as a whole.
The monotone convergence theorem, on the other hand, is exactly the same as Tonelli's theorem - when everything's positive, either both sides are the same and finite or both sides are infinite.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While most of the time I would use the Fubini/Tonelli conditions, the dominated convergence theorem is actually strictly stronger in this mixed sum/integral case, because it can take into account the order structure of the integers. An example (that I first worked up back in 2009:
Consider the calculation
begin{align*}ln 2 &= int_0^1 frac1{1+x},dx = int_0^1sum_{n=0}^{infty} (-1)^n x^n,dx\
?&= sum_{n=0}^{infty}int_0^1(-1)^n x^n,dx = 1-frac12+frac13-frac14+cdotsend{align*}
Fubini's theorem isn't strong enough to justify the interchange. If we put absolute values on the terms, it blows up to $int_0^1 frac1{1-x},dx = 1+frac12+frac13+frac14+cdots=infty$.
On the other hand, the dominated convergence theorem cares about the partial sums $sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^n$. By the alternating series estimate,
$$0le sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^nle 1$$
for all $xin [0,1]$. $1$ is integrable on this interval, and the interchange
$$int_0^1left(lim_{Ntoinfty}sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^nright),dx = lim_{Ntoinfty}int_0^1 sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^n,dx$$
is justified, proving the result $1-frac12+frac13-frac14+cdots=ln 2$.
This situation with the dominated convergence theorem being stronger than Fubini's theorem can come up when we've got a reasonable bound on partial sums but not absolute convergence as a whole.
The monotone convergence theorem, on the other hand, is exactly the same as Tonelli's theorem - when everything's positive, either both sides are the same and finite or both sides are infinite.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While most of the time I would use the Fubini/Tonelli conditions, the dominated convergence theorem is actually strictly stronger in this mixed sum/integral case, because it can take into account the order structure of the integers. An example (that I first worked up back in 2009:
Consider the calculation
begin{align*}ln 2 &= int_0^1 frac1{1+x},dx = int_0^1sum_{n=0}^{infty} (-1)^n x^n,dx\
?&= sum_{n=0}^{infty}int_0^1(-1)^n x^n,dx = 1-frac12+frac13-frac14+cdotsend{align*}
Fubini's theorem isn't strong enough to justify the interchange. If we put absolute values on the terms, it blows up to $int_0^1 frac1{1-x},dx = 1+frac12+frac13+frac14+cdots=infty$.
On the other hand, the dominated convergence theorem cares about the partial sums $sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^n$. By the alternating series estimate,
$$0le sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^nle 1$$
for all $xin [0,1]$. $1$ is integrable on this interval, and the interchange
$$int_0^1left(lim_{Ntoinfty}sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^nright),dx = lim_{Ntoinfty}int_0^1 sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^n,dx$$
is justified, proving the result $1-frac12+frac13-frac14+cdots=ln 2$.
This situation with the dominated convergence theorem being stronger than Fubini's theorem can come up when we've got a reasonable bound on partial sums but not absolute convergence as a whole.
The monotone convergence theorem, on the other hand, is exactly the same as Tonelli's theorem - when everything's positive, either both sides are the same and finite or both sides are infinite.
$endgroup$
While most of the time I would use the Fubini/Tonelli conditions, the dominated convergence theorem is actually strictly stronger in this mixed sum/integral case, because it can take into account the order structure of the integers. An example (that I first worked up back in 2009:
Consider the calculation
begin{align*}ln 2 &= int_0^1 frac1{1+x},dx = int_0^1sum_{n=0}^{infty} (-1)^n x^n,dx\
?&= sum_{n=0}^{infty}int_0^1(-1)^n x^n,dx = 1-frac12+frac13-frac14+cdotsend{align*}
Fubini's theorem isn't strong enough to justify the interchange. If we put absolute values on the terms, it blows up to $int_0^1 frac1{1-x},dx = 1+frac12+frac13+frac14+cdots=infty$.
On the other hand, the dominated convergence theorem cares about the partial sums $sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^n$. By the alternating series estimate,
$$0le sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^nle 1$$
for all $xin [0,1]$. $1$ is integrable on this interval, and the interchange
$$int_0^1left(lim_{Ntoinfty}sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^nright),dx = lim_{Ntoinfty}int_0^1 sum_{n=0}^{N}(-1)^n x^n,dx$$
is justified, proving the result $1-frac12+frac13-frac14+cdots=ln 2$.
This situation with the dominated convergence theorem being stronger than Fubini's theorem can come up when we've got a reasonable bound on partial sums but not absolute convergence as a whole.
The monotone convergence theorem, on the other hand, is exactly the same as Tonelli's theorem - when everything's positive, either both sides are the same and finite or both sides are infinite.
answered Dec 30 '18 at 11:19
jmerryjmerry
3,592514
3,592514
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
I'm used to proving it capable with monotone convergence or the Lebesgue dominated convergence methods. But those are hardly sharp, I think. There are many versions of MC and LDC, so I don't know which you know.
$endgroup$
– davidlowryduda♦
Nov 19 '11 at 19:21