In ring theory, is every real number divisible by any other nonzero real number, precisely because nonzero...
In ring theory, is every real number divisible by any other nonzero real number, precisely because nonzero division is closed in $mathbb{R}$?
And so in general this idea of "closure under division" can be used to describe divisibility in a ring? E.g. one might say:
$mathbb{R}^*$ is closed under division, hence each one of its elements is divisible by any other one. (Which for example, in $mathbb{Z}$, remains false.)
abstract-algebra ring-theory
add a comment |
In ring theory, is every real number divisible by any other nonzero real number, precisely because nonzero division is closed in $mathbb{R}$?
And so in general this idea of "closure under division" can be used to describe divisibility in a ring? E.g. one might say:
$mathbb{R}^*$ is closed under division, hence each one of its elements is divisible by any other one. (Which for example, in $mathbb{Z}$, remains false.)
abstract-algebra ring-theory
4
That's like saying an integer plus an integer is an integer, "because" addition is closed in $Bbb Z$. It doesn't explain anything, it's just two ways of saying the same thing.
– TonyK
Dec 26 at 2:49
add a comment |
In ring theory, is every real number divisible by any other nonzero real number, precisely because nonzero division is closed in $mathbb{R}$?
And so in general this idea of "closure under division" can be used to describe divisibility in a ring? E.g. one might say:
$mathbb{R}^*$ is closed under division, hence each one of its elements is divisible by any other one. (Which for example, in $mathbb{Z}$, remains false.)
abstract-algebra ring-theory
In ring theory, is every real number divisible by any other nonzero real number, precisely because nonzero division is closed in $mathbb{R}$?
And so in general this idea of "closure under division" can be used to describe divisibility in a ring? E.g. one might say:
$mathbb{R}^*$ is closed under division, hence each one of its elements is divisible by any other one. (Which for example, in $mathbb{Z}$, remains false.)
abstract-algebra ring-theory
abstract-algebra ring-theory
asked Dec 26 at 2:25
Stephen
1,3111819
1,3111819
4
That's like saying an integer plus an integer is an integer, "because" addition is closed in $Bbb Z$. It doesn't explain anything, it's just two ways of saying the same thing.
– TonyK
Dec 26 at 2:49
add a comment |
4
That's like saying an integer plus an integer is an integer, "because" addition is closed in $Bbb Z$. It doesn't explain anything, it's just two ways of saying the same thing.
– TonyK
Dec 26 at 2:49
4
4
That's like saying an integer plus an integer is an integer, "because" addition is closed in $Bbb Z$. It doesn't explain anything, it's just two ways of saying the same thing.
– TonyK
Dec 26 at 2:49
That's like saying an integer plus an integer is an integer, "because" addition is closed in $Bbb Z$. It doesn't explain anything, it's just two ways of saying the same thing.
– TonyK
Dec 26 at 2:49
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
The answer to the first question is unequivocally yes. This is why it's important that divisibility (and hence primality) is only meaningful relative to a base ring.
Mainly answered to say that since the previous answers weren't being sufficiently definite about it. That said:
As to the second question, one would normally just say that $mathbb{R}$ is a field. An element that every element is divisible by is called a unit, so you equivalently say that every nonzero element is a unit. The reverse condition, being divisible by every nonzero element, doesn't have a name I'm aware of, but is a nontrivial condition in certain rings.
People are objecting to the term "closure" on the grounds that it doesn't make sense except in the context of an operation defined on a larger set. This is a valid objection which also applies to a common way you'll see group theory taught: it's fine to say "a subgroup is a subset closed under the group operations," but it's not okay to say that "a group is a set closed under multiplication such that..." because what would it even mean for it not to be closed?
add a comment |
I don't think it is wise to talk about the division operator being closed in the ring minus the $0$ element, but rather that every nonzero element has a inverse element such that $xcdot x^{-1}=1$. Every real number "is divisible" by every nonzero real number because every nonzero real number has a multiplicative inverse.
I want to make this seemingly pedantic distinction because in a more general ring it is not clear what "division" should be for elements that don't already have a defined inverse. The best we can do is build the field of fractions, but again it is all defined in terms of the multiplication operation and the idea of what a multiplicative inverse is.
New contributor
add a comment |
Well, yes, it is true that if $dinmathbb R setminus {0}$ and $ain mathbb R$, then $d|a$, since this means
$$exists kin mathbb R, ;a=dk,$$
(and is enough to take $k=frac ad$). But this is equivalent to have a multiplicative inverse for every non-zero element of the ring, which implies that this is in fact a field (or a division ring, if it were not commutative).
I would not say that $mathbb R^*$ is "closed under division", since for a ring $R$ the set $R^*$ is by definition the set of elements of $R$ with an inverse, so this is kind of the same. For instance, $$mathbb Z^*={-1,1},$$ and so $mathbb Z^*$ is also "closed under division", since
$$1|1, quad 1|-1, quad -1|1 quad text{and}quad -1|-1.$$
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
The answer to the first question is unequivocally yes. This is why it's important that divisibility (and hence primality) is only meaningful relative to a base ring.
Mainly answered to say that since the previous answers weren't being sufficiently definite about it. That said:
As to the second question, one would normally just say that $mathbb{R}$ is a field. An element that every element is divisible by is called a unit, so you equivalently say that every nonzero element is a unit. The reverse condition, being divisible by every nonzero element, doesn't have a name I'm aware of, but is a nontrivial condition in certain rings.
People are objecting to the term "closure" on the grounds that it doesn't make sense except in the context of an operation defined on a larger set. This is a valid objection which also applies to a common way you'll see group theory taught: it's fine to say "a subgroup is a subset closed under the group operations," but it's not okay to say that "a group is a set closed under multiplication such that..." because what would it even mean for it not to be closed?
add a comment |
The answer to the first question is unequivocally yes. This is why it's important that divisibility (and hence primality) is only meaningful relative to a base ring.
Mainly answered to say that since the previous answers weren't being sufficiently definite about it. That said:
As to the second question, one would normally just say that $mathbb{R}$ is a field. An element that every element is divisible by is called a unit, so you equivalently say that every nonzero element is a unit. The reverse condition, being divisible by every nonzero element, doesn't have a name I'm aware of, but is a nontrivial condition in certain rings.
People are objecting to the term "closure" on the grounds that it doesn't make sense except in the context of an operation defined on a larger set. This is a valid objection which also applies to a common way you'll see group theory taught: it's fine to say "a subgroup is a subset closed under the group operations," but it's not okay to say that "a group is a set closed under multiplication such that..." because what would it even mean for it not to be closed?
add a comment |
The answer to the first question is unequivocally yes. This is why it's important that divisibility (and hence primality) is only meaningful relative to a base ring.
Mainly answered to say that since the previous answers weren't being sufficiently definite about it. That said:
As to the second question, one would normally just say that $mathbb{R}$ is a field. An element that every element is divisible by is called a unit, so you equivalently say that every nonzero element is a unit. The reverse condition, being divisible by every nonzero element, doesn't have a name I'm aware of, but is a nontrivial condition in certain rings.
People are objecting to the term "closure" on the grounds that it doesn't make sense except in the context of an operation defined on a larger set. This is a valid objection which also applies to a common way you'll see group theory taught: it's fine to say "a subgroup is a subset closed under the group operations," but it's not okay to say that "a group is a set closed under multiplication such that..." because what would it even mean for it not to be closed?
The answer to the first question is unequivocally yes. This is why it's important that divisibility (and hence primality) is only meaningful relative to a base ring.
Mainly answered to say that since the previous answers weren't being sufficiently definite about it. That said:
As to the second question, one would normally just say that $mathbb{R}$ is a field. An element that every element is divisible by is called a unit, so you equivalently say that every nonzero element is a unit. The reverse condition, being divisible by every nonzero element, doesn't have a name I'm aware of, but is a nontrivial condition in certain rings.
People are objecting to the term "closure" on the grounds that it doesn't make sense except in the context of an operation defined on a larger set. This is a valid objection which also applies to a common way you'll see group theory taught: it's fine to say "a subgroup is a subset closed under the group operations," but it's not okay to say that "a group is a set closed under multiplication such that..." because what would it even mean for it not to be closed?
edited Dec 26 at 3:18
answered Dec 26 at 3:03
Daniel McLaury
15.5k32977
15.5k32977
add a comment |
add a comment |
I don't think it is wise to talk about the division operator being closed in the ring minus the $0$ element, but rather that every nonzero element has a inverse element such that $xcdot x^{-1}=1$. Every real number "is divisible" by every nonzero real number because every nonzero real number has a multiplicative inverse.
I want to make this seemingly pedantic distinction because in a more general ring it is not clear what "division" should be for elements that don't already have a defined inverse. The best we can do is build the field of fractions, but again it is all defined in terms of the multiplication operation and the idea of what a multiplicative inverse is.
New contributor
add a comment |
I don't think it is wise to talk about the division operator being closed in the ring minus the $0$ element, but rather that every nonzero element has a inverse element such that $xcdot x^{-1}=1$. Every real number "is divisible" by every nonzero real number because every nonzero real number has a multiplicative inverse.
I want to make this seemingly pedantic distinction because in a more general ring it is not clear what "division" should be for elements that don't already have a defined inverse. The best we can do is build the field of fractions, but again it is all defined in terms of the multiplication operation and the idea of what a multiplicative inverse is.
New contributor
add a comment |
I don't think it is wise to talk about the division operator being closed in the ring minus the $0$ element, but rather that every nonzero element has a inverse element such that $xcdot x^{-1}=1$. Every real number "is divisible" by every nonzero real number because every nonzero real number has a multiplicative inverse.
I want to make this seemingly pedantic distinction because in a more general ring it is not clear what "division" should be for elements that don't already have a defined inverse. The best we can do is build the field of fractions, but again it is all defined in terms of the multiplication operation and the idea of what a multiplicative inverse is.
New contributor
I don't think it is wise to talk about the division operator being closed in the ring minus the $0$ element, but rather that every nonzero element has a inverse element such that $xcdot x^{-1}=1$. Every real number "is divisible" by every nonzero real number because every nonzero real number has a multiplicative inverse.
I want to make this seemingly pedantic distinction because in a more general ring it is not clear what "division" should be for elements that don't already have a defined inverse. The best we can do is build the field of fractions, but again it is all defined in terms of the multiplication operation and the idea of what a multiplicative inverse is.
New contributor
New contributor
answered Dec 26 at 2:30
ImNotTheGuy
46116
46116
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
Well, yes, it is true that if $dinmathbb R setminus {0}$ and $ain mathbb R$, then $d|a$, since this means
$$exists kin mathbb R, ;a=dk,$$
(and is enough to take $k=frac ad$). But this is equivalent to have a multiplicative inverse for every non-zero element of the ring, which implies that this is in fact a field (or a division ring, if it were not commutative).
I would not say that $mathbb R^*$ is "closed under division", since for a ring $R$ the set $R^*$ is by definition the set of elements of $R$ with an inverse, so this is kind of the same. For instance, $$mathbb Z^*={-1,1},$$ and so $mathbb Z^*$ is also "closed under division", since
$$1|1, quad 1|-1, quad -1|1 quad text{and}quad -1|-1.$$
add a comment |
Well, yes, it is true that if $dinmathbb R setminus {0}$ and $ain mathbb R$, then $d|a$, since this means
$$exists kin mathbb R, ;a=dk,$$
(and is enough to take $k=frac ad$). But this is equivalent to have a multiplicative inverse for every non-zero element of the ring, which implies that this is in fact a field (or a division ring, if it were not commutative).
I would not say that $mathbb R^*$ is "closed under division", since for a ring $R$ the set $R^*$ is by definition the set of elements of $R$ with an inverse, so this is kind of the same. For instance, $$mathbb Z^*={-1,1},$$ and so $mathbb Z^*$ is also "closed under division", since
$$1|1, quad 1|-1, quad -1|1 quad text{and}quad -1|-1.$$
add a comment |
Well, yes, it is true that if $dinmathbb R setminus {0}$ and $ain mathbb R$, then $d|a$, since this means
$$exists kin mathbb R, ;a=dk,$$
(and is enough to take $k=frac ad$). But this is equivalent to have a multiplicative inverse for every non-zero element of the ring, which implies that this is in fact a field (or a division ring, if it were not commutative).
I would not say that $mathbb R^*$ is "closed under division", since for a ring $R$ the set $R^*$ is by definition the set of elements of $R$ with an inverse, so this is kind of the same. For instance, $$mathbb Z^*={-1,1},$$ and so $mathbb Z^*$ is also "closed under division", since
$$1|1, quad 1|-1, quad -1|1 quad text{and}quad -1|-1.$$
Well, yes, it is true that if $dinmathbb R setminus {0}$ and $ain mathbb R$, then $d|a$, since this means
$$exists kin mathbb R, ;a=dk,$$
(and is enough to take $k=frac ad$). But this is equivalent to have a multiplicative inverse for every non-zero element of the ring, which implies that this is in fact a field (or a division ring, if it were not commutative).
I would not say that $mathbb R^*$ is "closed under division", since for a ring $R$ the set $R^*$ is by definition the set of elements of $R$ with an inverse, so this is kind of the same. For instance, $$mathbb Z^*={-1,1},$$ and so $mathbb Z^*$ is also "closed under division", since
$$1|1, quad 1|-1, quad -1|1 quad text{and}quad -1|-1.$$
edited Dec 26 at 2:50
answered Dec 26 at 2:41
Alejandro Nasif Salum
4,399118
4,399118
add a comment |
add a comment |
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4
That's like saying an integer plus an integer is an integer, "because" addition is closed in $Bbb Z$. It doesn't explain anything, it's just two ways of saying the same thing.
– TonyK
Dec 26 at 2:49