Difficult Derivative?
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I'm in a single-variable calculus course, in which we recently covered logarithmic differentiation. The professor proved it that works when $f(x)>0$, and when $f(x)<0$. I've been trying to find a way to derive that kind of function when $f(x)=0$, but I'm not sure if it's possible, or what. I've thought of this example, that resists all my efforts to differentiate, but seems to be differentiable, (and even appears to have a value of zero).
Find
$$f'left(frac{3pi}{2}right)quad rm where quad f(x)=(sin{x} + 1)^x .$$
Is there any way I can find this derivative (if it exists), beyond numerically computing the limit from the definition of the derivative? Or, vice versa, how can I prove that this derivative doesn't exist?
Thanks,
Reggie
calculus derivatives
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'm in a single-variable calculus course, in which we recently covered logarithmic differentiation. The professor proved it that works when $f(x)>0$, and when $f(x)<0$. I've been trying to find a way to derive that kind of function when $f(x)=0$, but I'm not sure if it's possible, or what. I've thought of this example, that resists all my efforts to differentiate, but seems to be differentiable, (and even appears to have a value of zero).
Find
$$f'left(frac{3pi}{2}right)quad rm where quad f(x)=(sin{x} + 1)^x .$$
Is there any way I can find this derivative (if it exists), beyond numerically computing the limit from the definition of the derivative? Or, vice versa, how can I prove that this derivative doesn't exist?
Thanks,
Reggie
calculus derivatives
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What definition of exponentiation are you using?
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– user7530
Oct 28 '13 at 19:01
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'm in a single-variable calculus course, in which we recently covered logarithmic differentiation. The professor proved it that works when $f(x)>0$, and when $f(x)<0$. I've been trying to find a way to derive that kind of function when $f(x)=0$, but I'm not sure if it's possible, or what. I've thought of this example, that resists all my efforts to differentiate, but seems to be differentiable, (and even appears to have a value of zero).
Find
$$f'left(frac{3pi}{2}right)quad rm where quad f(x)=(sin{x} + 1)^x .$$
Is there any way I can find this derivative (if it exists), beyond numerically computing the limit from the definition of the derivative? Or, vice versa, how can I prove that this derivative doesn't exist?
Thanks,
Reggie
calculus derivatives
$endgroup$
I'm in a single-variable calculus course, in which we recently covered logarithmic differentiation. The professor proved it that works when $f(x)>0$, and when $f(x)<0$. I've been trying to find a way to derive that kind of function when $f(x)=0$, but I'm not sure if it's possible, or what. I've thought of this example, that resists all my efforts to differentiate, but seems to be differentiable, (and even appears to have a value of zero).
Find
$$f'left(frac{3pi}{2}right)quad rm where quad f(x)=(sin{x} + 1)^x .$$
Is there any way I can find this derivative (if it exists), beyond numerically computing the limit from the definition of the derivative? Or, vice versa, how can I prove that this derivative doesn't exist?
Thanks,
Reggie
calculus derivatives
calculus derivatives
edited Oct 28 '13 at 19:06
Mhenni Benghorbal
43.3k63775
43.3k63775
asked Oct 28 '13 at 18:58
ReggieReggie
2112
2112
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What definition of exponentiation are you using?
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– user7530
Oct 28 '13 at 19:01
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What definition of exponentiation are you using?
$endgroup$
– user7530
Oct 28 '13 at 19:01
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What definition of exponentiation are you using?
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– user7530
Oct 28 '13 at 19:01
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What definition of exponentiation are you using?
$endgroup$
– user7530
Oct 28 '13 at 19:01
add a comment |
6 Answers
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Oddly enough, this is a case where you actually do well to revert to the definition of the derivative:
$$f'left({3piover2}right)=lim_{hrightarrow0}{fleft({3piover2}+hright)-fleft({3piover2}right)over h}$$
You don't have to do any numerical computation. Note that $sin({3piover2}+h)=-cos h$, so for $f(x)=(1+sin x)^x$ the definition becomes
$$f'left({3piover2}right)=lim_{hrightarrow0}{(1-cos h)^{{3piover2}+h}over h}$$
since $f({3piover2})$ is clearly $0$. But for (small) nonzero $h$, we have $$0lt|1-cos h|^{{3piover2}+h}lt|1-cos h|$$since $|1-cos h|lt1$ and $3pi/2gt1$, from which, using the definition of the derivative for the cosine function and the fact that $(cos x)'=-sin x$, it follows that
$$0le lim_{hrightarrow0}left|{(1-cos h)^{{3piover2}+h}over h}right|leleft|lim_{hrightarrow0}{1-cos hover h}right|=|sin0|=0$$
hence
$$ f'left({3piover2}right)=0$$
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add a comment |
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$$log{f(x)} = x log{(sin{x}+1)}$$
$$frac{d}{dx} log{f(x)} = log{(sin{x}+1)} + frac{x cos{x}}{sin{x}+1} = frac{(sin{x}+1)log{(sin{x}+1)}+x cos{x}}{sin{x}+1} $$
Now,
$$frac{d}{dx} log{f(x)} = frac{f'(x)}{f(x)}$$
so that
$$f'(x) = (sin{x}+1)^{x} log{(sin{x}+1)}+ (sin{x}+1)^{x-1} x cos{x} $$
Note that this has been mere manipulation without any regard to where $f'$ may exist, etc. However, as you are interested in the value at $x=3 pi/2$, $x gt 0$, so that the factor $(sin{x}+1)^{x}$ goes to zero faster than $log{(sin{x}+1)}$ blows up. Therefore, $f'(3 pi/2)=0$.
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Yes, that is what I suspect to be true. The only problem I have with this answer, is that I don't know how I can be sure that the limit of the derivative comes out with the correct value, or I want to know how we know that the derivative is continuous. Basically, this leads me to the question, Given a function f(x), can we know anything about the continuity of f'(x) without actually differentiating f(x)?
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– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:01
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@Reggie: not entirely sure of what you mean. Just know that $$lim_{yto 0} y^{alpha} log{y} = 0$$ when $alpha gt 0$. As $x to 3 pi/2$, $1+sin{x} sim frac12 (x-3 pi/2)^2$. (Hint: Expand $sin{[(x-3 pi/2) + 3 pi/2]}$ for $epsilon=x-3 pi/2$ being a small quantity.) As far as your question goes, I know an answer involving Fourier transforms, but I doubt that's what you want.
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– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:20
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I would like anything that answers the question regarding the continuity of the derivative of a function. I have been thinking about this for a while, (and I do understand more math then would be expected of a student in a first-year calculus class). Also, I don't mind if I have to look up, or learn a couple new concepts to understand the answer. So feel free to post the answer involving Fourier transforms... I do know what a Fourier transform is, and have resources to learn more, so it might help.
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– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:29
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A heuristic statement - by no means rigorous, although it can be made so - is that a function $f(x)$ of class $C^n$ has a Fourier transform $hat{f}(k)$ that has a leading asymptotic behavior proportional to $1/k^{n+1}$. That is, if $f$ has a discontinuity in the derivative, then its Fourier transform $hat{f}$ has a leading asymptotic behavior of $1/k^2$ as $ktoinfty$. (Think of $f(x)=pi e^{-|x|}$, whose transform is $hat{f}(k) = 1/(1+k^2)$.)
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– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:38
add a comment |
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$f(x) = (sin(x)+1)^x = (e^{ln(sin(x)+1)})^x = e^{x ln(sin(x)+1)}$.
Then $f'(x) = e^{x ln(sin(x)+1)} * frac{d}{dx} [x ln(sin(x)+1)]$
by the rules for differentiating exponentials, and the chain rule.
Now $frac{d}{dx} [x ln(sin(x)+1)] = ln(sin(x)+1) + x * frac{1}{sin(x)+1} * cos(x)$
by a combination of the product rule and chain rule.
Now simply insert the value of $frac{3pi}{2}$ and see what happens (I don't have time to do this at the moment).
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add a comment |
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Graph of $f(x)$:
Graph of $f'(x)$:
See both the above graphs.
$f(x)$ is actually not differentiable at $x= 1.5π$. The graph of $f'(x)$ at $x = 1.5π$ is a vertical asymptote. The function's second differential may say that it is increasing/decreasing at $x= 1.5π$ but the first derivative doesn't exist.
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Link for f '(x) : drive.google.com/file/d/1PYH7H1fAc41qC6g6G4PQOQeXYRY72hK9/…
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– Madhav
Jan 10 '18 at 2:55
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It would be much more useful if you were to upload the images somewhere such that they can be embedded into your post. As it is right now, your answer is quite hard to follow.
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– Xander Henderson
Jan 10 '18 at 4:22
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Not completely sure what you're looking for here, but a simple way of solving this is the chain rule.
$f(x)=(sin{x} +1)^x$
First you have to realize that you're dealing with a chain in the form of $a^x$. Since the derivative of $a^x$ is $ln(a)cdot a^x$.
Set $sin(x)+1$ equal to $u$
Then your function looks like this
$f(x)=u^x$
In the chain rule, you take the derivative and write ignore the $u$ and then multiply it by the derivative of the $u$.
We will take the derivative of $u^x$ then multiply it by the derivative of $u$
Shown here
$f'(x)=ln(u)cdot(u^x)cdot frac{du}{dx}$
Plug in the blop for u
$f'(x)= ln(sin{x} +1)cdot(sin{x} +1)^x cdotfrac{d}{dx} (sin{x} +1)$
Then take the derivative of the $sin{x} + 1$ which is $cos{x}$ because the derivative of a constant is 0
$f(x)= ln(sin{x} +1)cdot(sin{x} +1)^x cdot cos{x}$
Then plug in $frac{3pi}{2}$
$f'(3π/2)= ln(sinfrac{3pi}{2} +1)cdot(sin{frac{3pi}{2}})^{(frac{3pi}{2})} cdot cosfrac{3pi}{2}$
Since $cosfrac{3pi}{2} = 0$ then $f'(frac{3pi}{2}) = 0$ because anything multiplied by 0 becomes 0.
You didn't have to use the rules of logarithms to accomplish this, unless your teacher specifically asks you to...
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1
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Note that you can format your post using $LaTeX$ syntax. E.g.$LaTeX$
.
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– jgon
Nov 7 '15 at 19:48
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You can find the first derivative algebraically using the product and chain rules.
I rewrote the function as $y=e$ to the power of $ln sin x +1$. Then I rewrote this as e to the power of u. I used the chain rule to find $frac{dy}{du}$, which was the original function (as the derivative of e to the x is just e to the x). The derivite of the inner function $ln sin x+1$ required use of the product and chain rules. We can find the derivitive of the overall function to be $ln sin x+1$ times $cos x csc x +2 cos x$. Then we can substitute in for $x$. Notice how $e$ to the power of $ln 0$ is just $0$.
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First off, it is perhaps worth mentioning that you are also using implicit differentiation here (not just the product and chain rules). Second, your answer is quite difficult to follow---it would be vastly improved with a little MathJax formatting. Finally, this question already has several answers---what does your answer add that hasn't been said already?
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– Xander Henderson
Jun 20 '18 at 0:19
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6 Answers
6
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votes
6 Answers
6
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Oddly enough, this is a case where you actually do well to revert to the definition of the derivative:
$$f'left({3piover2}right)=lim_{hrightarrow0}{fleft({3piover2}+hright)-fleft({3piover2}right)over h}$$
You don't have to do any numerical computation. Note that $sin({3piover2}+h)=-cos h$, so for $f(x)=(1+sin x)^x$ the definition becomes
$$f'left({3piover2}right)=lim_{hrightarrow0}{(1-cos h)^{{3piover2}+h}over h}$$
since $f({3piover2})$ is clearly $0$. But for (small) nonzero $h$, we have $$0lt|1-cos h|^{{3piover2}+h}lt|1-cos h|$$since $|1-cos h|lt1$ and $3pi/2gt1$, from which, using the definition of the derivative for the cosine function and the fact that $(cos x)'=-sin x$, it follows that
$$0le lim_{hrightarrow0}left|{(1-cos h)^{{3piover2}+h}over h}right|leleft|lim_{hrightarrow0}{1-cos hover h}right|=|sin0|=0$$
hence
$$ f'left({3piover2}right)=0$$
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add a comment |
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Oddly enough, this is a case where you actually do well to revert to the definition of the derivative:
$$f'left({3piover2}right)=lim_{hrightarrow0}{fleft({3piover2}+hright)-fleft({3piover2}right)over h}$$
You don't have to do any numerical computation. Note that $sin({3piover2}+h)=-cos h$, so for $f(x)=(1+sin x)^x$ the definition becomes
$$f'left({3piover2}right)=lim_{hrightarrow0}{(1-cos h)^{{3piover2}+h}over h}$$
since $f({3piover2})$ is clearly $0$. But for (small) nonzero $h$, we have $$0lt|1-cos h|^{{3piover2}+h}lt|1-cos h|$$since $|1-cos h|lt1$ and $3pi/2gt1$, from which, using the definition of the derivative for the cosine function and the fact that $(cos x)'=-sin x$, it follows that
$$0le lim_{hrightarrow0}left|{(1-cos h)^{{3piover2}+h}over h}right|leleft|lim_{hrightarrow0}{1-cos hover h}right|=|sin0|=0$$
hence
$$ f'left({3piover2}right)=0$$
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add a comment |
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Oddly enough, this is a case where you actually do well to revert to the definition of the derivative:
$$f'left({3piover2}right)=lim_{hrightarrow0}{fleft({3piover2}+hright)-fleft({3piover2}right)over h}$$
You don't have to do any numerical computation. Note that $sin({3piover2}+h)=-cos h$, so for $f(x)=(1+sin x)^x$ the definition becomes
$$f'left({3piover2}right)=lim_{hrightarrow0}{(1-cos h)^{{3piover2}+h}over h}$$
since $f({3piover2})$ is clearly $0$. But for (small) nonzero $h$, we have $$0lt|1-cos h|^{{3piover2}+h}lt|1-cos h|$$since $|1-cos h|lt1$ and $3pi/2gt1$, from which, using the definition of the derivative for the cosine function and the fact that $(cos x)'=-sin x$, it follows that
$$0le lim_{hrightarrow0}left|{(1-cos h)^{{3piover2}+h}over h}right|leleft|lim_{hrightarrow0}{1-cos hover h}right|=|sin0|=0$$
hence
$$ f'left({3piover2}right)=0$$
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Oddly enough, this is a case where you actually do well to revert to the definition of the derivative:
$$f'left({3piover2}right)=lim_{hrightarrow0}{fleft({3piover2}+hright)-fleft({3piover2}right)over h}$$
You don't have to do any numerical computation. Note that $sin({3piover2}+h)=-cos h$, so for $f(x)=(1+sin x)^x$ the definition becomes
$$f'left({3piover2}right)=lim_{hrightarrow0}{(1-cos h)^{{3piover2}+h}over h}$$
since $f({3piover2})$ is clearly $0$. But for (small) nonzero $h$, we have $$0lt|1-cos h|^{{3piover2}+h}lt|1-cos h|$$since $|1-cos h|lt1$ and $3pi/2gt1$, from which, using the definition of the derivative for the cosine function and the fact that $(cos x)'=-sin x$, it follows that
$$0le lim_{hrightarrow0}left|{(1-cos h)^{{3piover2}+h}over h}right|leleft|lim_{hrightarrow0}{1-cos hover h}right|=|sin0|=0$$
hence
$$ f'left({3piover2}right)=0$$
answered Oct 28 '13 at 22:23
Barry CipraBarry Cipra
60.5k655128
60.5k655128
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$$log{f(x)} = x log{(sin{x}+1)}$$
$$frac{d}{dx} log{f(x)} = log{(sin{x}+1)} + frac{x cos{x}}{sin{x}+1} = frac{(sin{x}+1)log{(sin{x}+1)}+x cos{x}}{sin{x}+1} $$
Now,
$$frac{d}{dx} log{f(x)} = frac{f'(x)}{f(x)}$$
so that
$$f'(x) = (sin{x}+1)^{x} log{(sin{x}+1)}+ (sin{x}+1)^{x-1} x cos{x} $$
Note that this has been mere manipulation without any regard to where $f'$ may exist, etc. However, as you are interested in the value at $x=3 pi/2$, $x gt 0$, so that the factor $(sin{x}+1)^{x}$ goes to zero faster than $log{(sin{x}+1)}$ blows up. Therefore, $f'(3 pi/2)=0$.
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Yes, that is what I suspect to be true. The only problem I have with this answer, is that I don't know how I can be sure that the limit of the derivative comes out with the correct value, or I want to know how we know that the derivative is continuous. Basically, this leads me to the question, Given a function f(x), can we know anything about the continuity of f'(x) without actually differentiating f(x)?
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– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:01
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@Reggie: not entirely sure of what you mean. Just know that $$lim_{yto 0} y^{alpha} log{y} = 0$$ when $alpha gt 0$. As $x to 3 pi/2$, $1+sin{x} sim frac12 (x-3 pi/2)^2$. (Hint: Expand $sin{[(x-3 pi/2) + 3 pi/2]}$ for $epsilon=x-3 pi/2$ being a small quantity.) As far as your question goes, I know an answer involving Fourier transforms, but I doubt that's what you want.
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– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:20
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I would like anything that answers the question regarding the continuity of the derivative of a function. I have been thinking about this for a while, (and I do understand more math then would be expected of a student in a first-year calculus class). Also, I don't mind if I have to look up, or learn a couple new concepts to understand the answer. So feel free to post the answer involving Fourier transforms... I do know what a Fourier transform is, and have resources to learn more, so it might help.
$endgroup$
– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:29
$begingroup$
A heuristic statement - by no means rigorous, although it can be made so - is that a function $f(x)$ of class $C^n$ has a Fourier transform $hat{f}(k)$ that has a leading asymptotic behavior proportional to $1/k^{n+1}$. That is, if $f$ has a discontinuity in the derivative, then its Fourier transform $hat{f}$ has a leading asymptotic behavior of $1/k^2$ as $ktoinfty$. (Think of $f(x)=pi e^{-|x|}$, whose transform is $hat{f}(k) = 1/(1+k^2)$.)
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– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$$log{f(x)} = x log{(sin{x}+1)}$$
$$frac{d}{dx} log{f(x)} = log{(sin{x}+1)} + frac{x cos{x}}{sin{x}+1} = frac{(sin{x}+1)log{(sin{x}+1)}+x cos{x}}{sin{x}+1} $$
Now,
$$frac{d}{dx} log{f(x)} = frac{f'(x)}{f(x)}$$
so that
$$f'(x) = (sin{x}+1)^{x} log{(sin{x}+1)}+ (sin{x}+1)^{x-1} x cos{x} $$
Note that this has been mere manipulation without any regard to where $f'$ may exist, etc. However, as you are interested in the value at $x=3 pi/2$, $x gt 0$, so that the factor $(sin{x}+1)^{x}$ goes to zero faster than $log{(sin{x}+1)}$ blows up. Therefore, $f'(3 pi/2)=0$.
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Yes, that is what I suspect to be true. The only problem I have with this answer, is that I don't know how I can be sure that the limit of the derivative comes out with the correct value, or I want to know how we know that the derivative is continuous. Basically, this leads me to the question, Given a function f(x), can we know anything about the continuity of f'(x) without actually differentiating f(x)?
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– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:01
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@Reggie: not entirely sure of what you mean. Just know that $$lim_{yto 0} y^{alpha} log{y} = 0$$ when $alpha gt 0$. As $x to 3 pi/2$, $1+sin{x} sim frac12 (x-3 pi/2)^2$. (Hint: Expand $sin{[(x-3 pi/2) + 3 pi/2]}$ for $epsilon=x-3 pi/2$ being a small quantity.) As far as your question goes, I know an answer involving Fourier transforms, but I doubt that's what you want.
$endgroup$
– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:20
$begingroup$
I would like anything that answers the question regarding the continuity of the derivative of a function. I have been thinking about this for a while, (and I do understand more math then would be expected of a student in a first-year calculus class). Also, I don't mind if I have to look up, or learn a couple new concepts to understand the answer. So feel free to post the answer involving Fourier transforms... I do know what a Fourier transform is, and have resources to learn more, so it might help.
$endgroup$
– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:29
$begingroup$
A heuristic statement - by no means rigorous, although it can be made so - is that a function $f(x)$ of class $C^n$ has a Fourier transform $hat{f}(k)$ that has a leading asymptotic behavior proportional to $1/k^{n+1}$. That is, if $f$ has a discontinuity in the derivative, then its Fourier transform $hat{f}$ has a leading asymptotic behavior of $1/k^2$ as $ktoinfty$. (Think of $f(x)=pi e^{-|x|}$, whose transform is $hat{f}(k) = 1/(1+k^2)$.)
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– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$$log{f(x)} = x log{(sin{x}+1)}$$
$$frac{d}{dx} log{f(x)} = log{(sin{x}+1)} + frac{x cos{x}}{sin{x}+1} = frac{(sin{x}+1)log{(sin{x}+1)}+x cos{x}}{sin{x}+1} $$
Now,
$$frac{d}{dx} log{f(x)} = frac{f'(x)}{f(x)}$$
so that
$$f'(x) = (sin{x}+1)^{x} log{(sin{x}+1)}+ (sin{x}+1)^{x-1} x cos{x} $$
Note that this has been mere manipulation without any regard to where $f'$ may exist, etc. However, as you are interested in the value at $x=3 pi/2$, $x gt 0$, so that the factor $(sin{x}+1)^{x}$ goes to zero faster than $log{(sin{x}+1)}$ blows up. Therefore, $f'(3 pi/2)=0$.
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$$log{f(x)} = x log{(sin{x}+1)}$$
$$frac{d}{dx} log{f(x)} = log{(sin{x}+1)} + frac{x cos{x}}{sin{x}+1} = frac{(sin{x}+1)log{(sin{x}+1)}+x cos{x}}{sin{x}+1} $$
Now,
$$frac{d}{dx} log{f(x)} = frac{f'(x)}{f(x)}$$
so that
$$f'(x) = (sin{x}+1)^{x} log{(sin{x}+1)}+ (sin{x}+1)^{x-1} x cos{x} $$
Note that this has been mere manipulation without any regard to where $f'$ may exist, etc. However, as you are interested in the value at $x=3 pi/2$, $x gt 0$, so that the factor $(sin{x}+1)^{x}$ goes to zero faster than $log{(sin{x}+1)}$ blows up. Therefore, $f'(3 pi/2)=0$.
answered Oct 28 '13 at 19:13
Ron GordonRon Gordon
122k14156267
122k14156267
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Yes, that is what I suspect to be true. The only problem I have with this answer, is that I don't know how I can be sure that the limit of the derivative comes out with the correct value, or I want to know how we know that the derivative is continuous. Basically, this leads me to the question, Given a function f(x), can we know anything about the continuity of f'(x) without actually differentiating f(x)?
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– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:01
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@Reggie: not entirely sure of what you mean. Just know that $$lim_{yto 0} y^{alpha} log{y} = 0$$ when $alpha gt 0$. As $x to 3 pi/2$, $1+sin{x} sim frac12 (x-3 pi/2)^2$. (Hint: Expand $sin{[(x-3 pi/2) + 3 pi/2]}$ for $epsilon=x-3 pi/2$ being a small quantity.) As far as your question goes, I know an answer involving Fourier transforms, but I doubt that's what you want.
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– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:20
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I would like anything that answers the question regarding the continuity of the derivative of a function. I have been thinking about this for a while, (and I do understand more math then would be expected of a student in a first-year calculus class). Also, I don't mind if I have to look up, or learn a couple new concepts to understand the answer. So feel free to post the answer involving Fourier transforms... I do know what a Fourier transform is, and have resources to learn more, so it might help.
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– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:29
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A heuristic statement - by no means rigorous, although it can be made so - is that a function $f(x)$ of class $C^n$ has a Fourier transform $hat{f}(k)$ that has a leading asymptotic behavior proportional to $1/k^{n+1}$. That is, if $f$ has a discontinuity in the derivative, then its Fourier transform $hat{f}$ has a leading asymptotic behavior of $1/k^2$ as $ktoinfty$. (Think of $f(x)=pi e^{-|x|}$, whose transform is $hat{f}(k) = 1/(1+k^2)$.)
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– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, that is what I suspect to be true. The only problem I have with this answer, is that I don't know how I can be sure that the limit of the derivative comes out with the correct value, or I want to know how we know that the derivative is continuous. Basically, this leads me to the question, Given a function f(x), can we know anything about the continuity of f'(x) without actually differentiating f(x)?
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– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:01
$begingroup$
@Reggie: not entirely sure of what you mean. Just know that $$lim_{yto 0} y^{alpha} log{y} = 0$$ when $alpha gt 0$. As $x to 3 pi/2$, $1+sin{x} sim frac12 (x-3 pi/2)^2$. (Hint: Expand $sin{[(x-3 pi/2) + 3 pi/2]}$ for $epsilon=x-3 pi/2$ being a small quantity.) As far as your question goes, I know an answer involving Fourier transforms, but I doubt that's what you want.
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– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:20
$begingroup$
I would like anything that answers the question regarding the continuity of the derivative of a function. I have been thinking about this for a while, (and I do understand more math then would be expected of a student in a first-year calculus class). Also, I don't mind if I have to look up, or learn a couple new concepts to understand the answer. So feel free to post the answer involving Fourier transforms... I do know what a Fourier transform is, and have resources to learn more, so it might help.
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– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:29
$begingroup$
A heuristic statement - by no means rigorous, although it can be made so - is that a function $f(x)$ of class $C^n$ has a Fourier transform $hat{f}(k)$ that has a leading asymptotic behavior proportional to $1/k^{n+1}$. That is, if $f$ has a discontinuity in the derivative, then its Fourier transform $hat{f}$ has a leading asymptotic behavior of $1/k^2$ as $ktoinfty$. (Think of $f(x)=pi e^{-|x|}$, whose transform is $hat{f}(k) = 1/(1+k^2)$.)
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– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:38
$begingroup$
Yes, that is what I suspect to be true. The only problem I have with this answer, is that I don't know how I can be sure that the limit of the derivative comes out with the correct value, or I want to know how we know that the derivative is continuous. Basically, this leads me to the question, Given a function f(x), can we know anything about the continuity of f'(x) without actually differentiating f(x)?
$endgroup$
– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:01
$begingroup$
Yes, that is what I suspect to be true. The only problem I have with this answer, is that I don't know how I can be sure that the limit of the derivative comes out with the correct value, or I want to know how we know that the derivative is continuous. Basically, this leads me to the question, Given a function f(x), can we know anything about the continuity of f'(x) without actually differentiating f(x)?
$endgroup$
– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:01
$begingroup$
@Reggie: not entirely sure of what you mean. Just know that $$lim_{yto 0} y^{alpha} log{y} = 0$$ when $alpha gt 0$. As $x to 3 pi/2$, $1+sin{x} sim frac12 (x-3 pi/2)^2$. (Hint: Expand $sin{[(x-3 pi/2) + 3 pi/2]}$ for $epsilon=x-3 pi/2$ being a small quantity.) As far as your question goes, I know an answer involving Fourier transforms, but I doubt that's what you want.
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– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:20
$begingroup$
@Reggie: not entirely sure of what you mean. Just know that $$lim_{yto 0} y^{alpha} log{y} = 0$$ when $alpha gt 0$. As $x to 3 pi/2$, $1+sin{x} sim frac12 (x-3 pi/2)^2$. (Hint: Expand $sin{[(x-3 pi/2) + 3 pi/2]}$ for $epsilon=x-3 pi/2$ being a small quantity.) As far as your question goes, I know an answer involving Fourier transforms, but I doubt that's what you want.
$endgroup$
– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:20
$begingroup$
I would like anything that answers the question regarding the continuity of the derivative of a function. I have been thinking about this for a while, (and I do understand more math then would be expected of a student in a first-year calculus class). Also, I don't mind if I have to look up, or learn a couple new concepts to understand the answer. So feel free to post the answer involving Fourier transforms... I do know what a Fourier transform is, and have resources to learn more, so it might help.
$endgroup$
– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:29
$begingroup$
I would like anything that answers the question regarding the continuity of the derivative of a function. I have been thinking about this for a while, (and I do understand more math then would be expected of a student in a first-year calculus class). Also, I don't mind if I have to look up, or learn a couple new concepts to understand the answer. So feel free to post the answer involving Fourier transforms... I do know what a Fourier transform is, and have resources to learn more, so it might help.
$endgroup$
– Reggie
Oct 28 '13 at 21:29
$begingroup$
A heuristic statement - by no means rigorous, although it can be made so - is that a function $f(x)$ of class $C^n$ has a Fourier transform $hat{f}(k)$ that has a leading asymptotic behavior proportional to $1/k^{n+1}$. That is, if $f$ has a discontinuity in the derivative, then its Fourier transform $hat{f}$ has a leading asymptotic behavior of $1/k^2$ as $ktoinfty$. (Think of $f(x)=pi e^{-|x|}$, whose transform is $hat{f}(k) = 1/(1+k^2)$.)
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– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:38
$begingroup$
A heuristic statement - by no means rigorous, although it can be made so - is that a function $f(x)$ of class $C^n$ has a Fourier transform $hat{f}(k)$ that has a leading asymptotic behavior proportional to $1/k^{n+1}$. That is, if $f$ has a discontinuity in the derivative, then its Fourier transform $hat{f}$ has a leading asymptotic behavior of $1/k^2$ as $ktoinfty$. (Think of $f(x)=pi e^{-|x|}$, whose transform is $hat{f}(k) = 1/(1+k^2)$.)
$endgroup$
– Ron Gordon
Oct 28 '13 at 21:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$f(x) = (sin(x)+1)^x = (e^{ln(sin(x)+1)})^x = e^{x ln(sin(x)+1)}$.
Then $f'(x) = e^{x ln(sin(x)+1)} * frac{d}{dx} [x ln(sin(x)+1)]$
by the rules for differentiating exponentials, and the chain rule.
Now $frac{d}{dx} [x ln(sin(x)+1)] = ln(sin(x)+1) + x * frac{1}{sin(x)+1} * cos(x)$
by a combination of the product rule and chain rule.
Now simply insert the value of $frac{3pi}{2}$ and see what happens (I don't have time to do this at the moment).
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add a comment |
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$f(x) = (sin(x)+1)^x = (e^{ln(sin(x)+1)})^x = e^{x ln(sin(x)+1)}$.
Then $f'(x) = e^{x ln(sin(x)+1)} * frac{d}{dx} [x ln(sin(x)+1)]$
by the rules for differentiating exponentials, and the chain rule.
Now $frac{d}{dx} [x ln(sin(x)+1)] = ln(sin(x)+1) + x * frac{1}{sin(x)+1} * cos(x)$
by a combination of the product rule and chain rule.
Now simply insert the value of $frac{3pi}{2}$ and see what happens (I don't have time to do this at the moment).
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
$f(x) = (sin(x)+1)^x = (e^{ln(sin(x)+1)})^x = e^{x ln(sin(x)+1)}$.
Then $f'(x) = e^{x ln(sin(x)+1)} * frac{d}{dx} [x ln(sin(x)+1)]$
by the rules for differentiating exponentials, and the chain rule.
Now $frac{d}{dx} [x ln(sin(x)+1)] = ln(sin(x)+1) + x * frac{1}{sin(x)+1} * cos(x)$
by a combination of the product rule and chain rule.
Now simply insert the value of $frac{3pi}{2}$ and see what happens (I don't have time to do this at the moment).
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$f(x) = (sin(x)+1)^x = (e^{ln(sin(x)+1)})^x = e^{x ln(sin(x)+1)}$.
Then $f'(x) = e^{x ln(sin(x)+1)} * frac{d}{dx} [x ln(sin(x)+1)]$
by the rules for differentiating exponentials, and the chain rule.
Now $frac{d}{dx} [x ln(sin(x)+1)] = ln(sin(x)+1) + x * frac{1}{sin(x)+1} * cos(x)$
by a combination of the product rule and chain rule.
Now simply insert the value of $frac{3pi}{2}$ and see what happens (I don't have time to do this at the moment).
answered Oct 28 '13 at 19:13
MartinMartin
165217
165217
add a comment |
add a comment |
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Graph of $f(x)$:
Graph of $f'(x)$:
See both the above graphs.
$f(x)$ is actually not differentiable at $x= 1.5π$. The graph of $f'(x)$ at $x = 1.5π$ is a vertical asymptote. The function's second differential may say that it is increasing/decreasing at $x= 1.5π$ but the first derivative doesn't exist.
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Link for f '(x) : drive.google.com/file/d/1PYH7H1fAc41qC6g6G4PQOQeXYRY72hK9/…
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– Madhav
Jan 10 '18 at 2:55
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It would be much more useful if you were to upload the images somewhere such that they can be embedded into your post. As it is right now, your answer is quite hard to follow.
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– Xander Henderson
Jan 10 '18 at 4:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Graph of $f(x)$:
Graph of $f'(x)$:
See both the above graphs.
$f(x)$ is actually not differentiable at $x= 1.5π$. The graph of $f'(x)$ at $x = 1.5π$ is a vertical asymptote. The function's second differential may say that it is increasing/decreasing at $x= 1.5π$ but the first derivative doesn't exist.
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$begingroup$
Link for f '(x) : drive.google.com/file/d/1PYH7H1fAc41qC6g6G4PQOQeXYRY72hK9/…
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– Madhav
Jan 10 '18 at 2:55
$begingroup$
It would be much more useful if you were to upload the images somewhere such that they can be embedded into your post. As it is right now, your answer is quite hard to follow.
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jan 10 '18 at 4:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Graph of $f(x)$:
Graph of $f'(x)$:
See both the above graphs.
$f(x)$ is actually not differentiable at $x= 1.5π$. The graph of $f'(x)$ at $x = 1.5π$ is a vertical asymptote. The function's second differential may say that it is increasing/decreasing at $x= 1.5π$ but the first derivative doesn't exist.
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Graph of $f(x)$:
Graph of $f'(x)$:
See both the above graphs.
$f(x)$ is actually not differentiable at $x= 1.5π$. The graph of $f'(x)$ at $x = 1.5π$ is a vertical asymptote. The function's second differential may say that it is increasing/decreasing at $x= 1.5π$ but the first derivative doesn't exist.
edited Jan 10 '18 at 5:36
Saad
20.2k92352
20.2k92352
answered Jan 10 '18 at 2:54
MadhavMadhav
11
11
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Link for f '(x) : drive.google.com/file/d/1PYH7H1fAc41qC6g6G4PQOQeXYRY72hK9/…
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– Madhav
Jan 10 '18 at 2:55
$begingroup$
It would be much more useful if you were to upload the images somewhere such that they can be embedded into your post. As it is right now, your answer is quite hard to follow.
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– Xander Henderson
Jan 10 '18 at 4:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Link for f '(x) : drive.google.com/file/d/1PYH7H1fAc41qC6g6G4PQOQeXYRY72hK9/…
$endgroup$
– Madhav
Jan 10 '18 at 2:55
$begingroup$
It would be much more useful if you were to upload the images somewhere such that they can be embedded into your post. As it is right now, your answer is quite hard to follow.
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jan 10 '18 at 4:22
$begingroup$
Link for f '(x) : drive.google.com/file/d/1PYH7H1fAc41qC6g6G4PQOQeXYRY72hK9/…
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– Madhav
Jan 10 '18 at 2:55
$begingroup$
Link for f '(x) : drive.google.com/file/d/1PYH7H1fAc41qC6g6G4PQOQeXYRY72hK9/…
$endgroup$
– Madhav
Jan 10 '18 at 2:55
$begingroup$
It would be much more useful if you were to upload the images somewhere such that they can be embedded into your post. As it is right now, your answer is quite hard to follow.
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jan 10 '18 at 4:22
$begingroup$
It would be much more useful if you were to upload the images somewhere such that they can be embedded into your post. As it is right now, your answer is quite hard to follow.
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jan 10 '18 at 4:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Not completely sure what you're looking for here, but a simple way of solving this is the chain rule.
$f(x)=(sin{x} +1)^x$
First you have to realize that you're dealing with a chain in the form of $a^x$. Since the derivative of $a^x$ is $ln(a)cdot a^x$.
Set $sin(x)+1$ equal to $u$
Then your function looks like this
$f(x)=u^x$
In the chain rule, you take the derivative and write ignore the $u$ and then multiply it by the derivative of the $u$.
We will take the derivative of $u^x$ then multiply it by the derivative of $u$
Shown here
$f'(x)=ln(u)cdot(u^x)cdot frac{du}{dx}$
Plug in the blop for u
$f'(x)= ln(sin{x} +1)cdot(sin{x} +1)^x cdotfrac{d}{dx} (sin{x} +1)$
Then take the derivative of the $sin{x} + 1$ which is $cos{x}$ because the derivative of a constant is 0
$f(x)= ln(sin{x} +1)cdot(sin{x} +1)^x cdot cos{x}$
Then plug in $frac{3pi}{2}$
$f'(3π/2)= ln(sinfrac{3pi}{2} +1)cdot(sin{frac{3pi}{2}})^{(frac{3pi}{2})} cdot cosfrac{3pi}{2}$
Since $cosfrac{3pi}{2} = 0$ then $f'(frac{3pi}{2}) = 0$ because anything multiplied by 0 becomes 0.
You didn't have to use the rules of logarithms to accomplish this, unless your teacher specifically asks you to...
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1
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Note that you can format your post using $LaTeX$ syntax. E.g.$LaTeX$
.
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– jgon
Nov 7 '15 at 19:48
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Not completely sure what you're looking for here, but a simple way of solving this is the chain rule.
$f(x)=(sin{x} +1)^x$
First you have to realize that you're dealing with a chain in the form of $a^x$. Since the derivative of $a^x$ is $ln(a)cdot a^x$.
Set $sin(x)+1$ equal to $u$
Then your function looks like this
$f(x)=u^x$
In the chain rule, you take the derivative and write ignore the $u$ and then multiply it by the derivative of the $u$.
We will take the derivative of $u^x$ then multiply it by the derivative of $u$
Shown here
$f'(x)=ln(u)cdot(u^x)cdot frac{du}{dx}$
Plug in the blop for u
$f'(x)= ln(sin{x} +1)cdot(sin{x} +1)^x cdotfrac{d}{dx} (sin{x} +1)$
Then take the derivative of the $sin{x} + 1$ which is $cos{x}$ because the derivative of a constant is 0
$f(x)= ln(sin{x} +1)cdot(sin{x} +1)^x cdot cos{x}$
Then plug in $frac{3pi}{2}$
$f'(3π/2)= ln(sinfrac{3pi}{2} +1)cdot(sin{frac{3pi}{2}})^{(frac{3pi}{2})} cdot cosfrac{3pi}{2}$
Since $cosfrac{3pi}{2} = 0$ then $f'(frac{3pi}{2}) = 0$ because anything multiplied by 0 becomes 0.
You didn't have to use the rules of logarithms to accomplish this, unless your teacher specifically asks you to...
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Note that you can format your post using $LaTeX$ syntax. E.g.$LaTeX$
.
$endgroup$
– jgon
Nov 7 '15 at 19:48
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Not completely sure what you're looking for here, but a simple way of solving this is the chain rule.
$f(x)=(sin{x} +1)^x$
First you have to realize that you're dealing with a chain in the form of $a^x$. Since the derivative of $a^x$ is $ln(a)cdot a^x$.
Set $sin(x)+1$ equal to $u$
Then your function looks like this
$f(x)=u^x$
In the chain rule, you take the derivative and write ignore the $u$ and then multiply it by the derivative of the $u$.
We will take the derivative of $u^x$ then multiply it by the derivative of $u$
Shown here
$f'(x)=ln(u)cdot(u^x)cdot frac{du}{dx}$
Plug in the blop for u
$f'(x)= ln(sin{x} +1)cdot(sin{x} +1)^x cdotfrac{d}{dx} (sin{x} +1)$
Then take the derivative of the $sin{x} + 1$ which is $cos{x}$ because the derivative of a constant is 0
$f(x)= ln(sin{x} +1)cdot(sin{x} +1)^x cdot cos{x}$
Then plug in $frac{3pi}{2}$
$f'(3π/2)= ln(sinfrac{3pi}{2} +1)cdot(sin{frac{3pi}{2}})^{(frac{3pi}{2})} cdot cosfrac{3pi}{2}$
Since $cosfrac{3pi}{2} = 0$ then $f'(frac{3pi}{2}) = 0$ because anything multiplied by 0 becomes 0.
You didn't have to use the rules of logarithms to accomplish this, unless your teacher specifically asks you to...
$endgroup$
Not completely sure what you're looking for here, but a simple way of solving this is the chain rule.
$f(x)=(sin{x} +1)^x$
First you have to realize that you're dealing with a chain in the form of $a^x$. Since the derivative of $a^x$ is $ln(a)cdot a^x$.
Set $sin(x)+1$ equal to $u$
Then your function looks like this
$f(x)=u^x$
In the chain rule, you take the derivative and write ignore the $u$ and then multiply it by the derivative of the $u$.
We will take the derivative of $u^x$ then multiply it by the derivative of $u$
Shown here
$f'(x)=ln(u)cdot(u^x)cdot frac{du}{dx}$
Plug in the blop for u
$f'(x)= ln(sin{x} +1)cdot(sin{x} +1)^x cdotfrac{d}{dx} (sin{x} +1)$
Then take the derivative of the $sin{x} + 1$ which is $cos{x}$ because the derivative of a constant is 0
$f(x)= ln(sin{x} +1)cdot(sin{x} +1)^x cdot cos{x}$
Then plug in $frac{3pi}{2}$
$f'(3π/2)= ln(sinfrac{3pi}{2} +1)cdot(sin{frac{3pi}{2}})^{(frac{3pi}{2})} cdot cosfrac{3pi}{2}$
Since $cosfrac{3pi}{2} = 0$ then $f'(frac{3pi}{2}) = 0$ because anything multiplied by 0 becomes 0.
You didn't have to use the rules of logarithms to accomplish this, unless your teacher specifically asks you to...
edited Jan 15 at 2:03
Arvin Singh
14117
14117
answered Nov 7 '15 at 19:21
MichelleMaths4youMichelleMaths4you
1
1
1
$begingroup$
Note that you can format your post using $LaTeX$ syntax. E.g.$LaTeX$
.
$endgroup$
– jgon
Nov 7 '15 at 19:48
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Note that you can format your post using $LaTeX$ syntax. E.g.$LaTeX$
.
$endgroup$
– jgon
Nov 7 '15 at 19:48
1
1
$begingroup$
Note that you can format your post using $LaTeX$ syntax. E.g.
$LaTeX$
.$endgroup$
– jgon
Nov 7 '15 at 19:48
$begingroup$
Note that you can format your post using $LaTeX$ syntax. E.g.
$LaTeX$
.$endgroup$
– jgon
Nov 7 '15 at 19:48
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can find the first derivative algebraically using the product and chain rules.
I rewrote the function as $y=e$ to the power of $ln sin x +1$. Then I rewrote this as e to the power of u. I used the chain rule to find $frac{dy}{du}$, which was the original function (as the derivative of e to the x is just e to the x). The derivite of the inner function $ln sin x+1$ required use of the product and chain rules. We can find the derivitive of the overall function to be $ln sin x+1$ times $cos x csc x +2 cos x$. Then we can substitute in for $x$. Notice how $e$ to the power of $ln 0$ is just $0$.
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First off, it is perhaps worth mentioning that you are also using implicit differentiation here (not just the product and chain rules). Second, your answer is quite difficult to follow---it would be vastly improved with a little MathJax formatting. Finally, this question already has several answers---what does your answer add that hasn't been said already?
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– Xander Henderson
Jun 20 '18 at 0:19
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can find the first derivative algebraically using the product and chain rules.
I rewrote the function as $y=e$ to the power of $ln sin x +1$. Then I rewrote this as e to the power of u. I used the chain rule to find $frac{dy}{du}$, which was the original function (as the derivative of e to the x is just e to the x). The derivite of the inner function $ln sin x+1$ required use of the product and chain rules. We can find the derivitive of the overall function to be $ln sin x+1$ times $cos x csc x +2 cos x$. Then we can substitute in for $x$. Notice how $e$ to the power of $ln 0$ is just $0$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
First off, it is perhaps worth mentioning that you are also using implicit differentiation here (not just the product and chain rules). Second, your answer is quite difficult to follow---it would be vastly improved with a little MathJax formatting. Finally, this question already has several answers---what does your answer add that hasn't been said already?
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jun 20 '18 at 0:19
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can find the first derivative algebraically using the product and chain rules.
I rewrote the function as $y=e$ to the power of $ln sin x +1$. Then I rewrote this as e to the power of u. I used the chain rule to find $frac{dy}{du}$, which was the original function (as the derivative of e to the x is just e to the x). The derivite of the inner function $ln sin x+1$ required use of the product and chain rules. We can find the derivitive of the overall function to be $ln sin x+1$ times $cos x csc x +2 cos x$. Then we can substitute in for $x$. Notice how $e$ to the power of $ln 0$ is just $0$.
$endgroup$
You can find the first derivative algebraically using the product and chain rules.
I rewrote the function as $y=e$ to the power of $ln sin x +1$. Then I rewrote this as e to the power of u. I used the chain rule to find $frac{dy}{du}$, which was the original function (as the derivative of e to the x is just e to the x). The derivite of the inner function $ln sin x+1$ required use of the product and chain rules. We can find the derivitive of the overall function to be $ln sin x+1$ times $cos x csc x +2 cos x$. Then we can substitute in for $x$. Notice how $e$ to the power of $ln 0$ is just $0$.
edited Jun 20 '18 at 1:08
peterh
2,17351731
2,17351731
answered Jun 20 '18 at 0:07
user570979user570979
1
1
$begingroup$
First off, it is perhaps worth mentioning that you are also using implicit differentiation here (not just the product and chain rules). Second, your answer is quite difficult to follow---it would be vastly improved with a little MathJax formatting. Finally, this question already has several answers---what does your answer add that hasn't been said already?
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jun 20 '18 at 0:19
add a comment |
$begingroup$
First off, it is perhaps worth mentioning that you are also using implicit differentiation here (not just the product and chain rules). Second, your answer is quite difficult to follow---it would be vastly improved with a little MathJax formatting. Finally, this question already has several answers---what does your answer add that hasn't been said already?
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jun 20 '18 at 0:19
$begingroup$
First off, it is perhaps worth mentioning that you are also using implicit differentiation here (not just the product and chain rules). Second, your answer is quite difficult to follow---it would be vastly improved with a little MathJax formatting. Finally, this question already has several answers---what does your answer add that hasn't been said already?
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jun 20 '18 at 0:19
$begingroup$
First off, it is perhaps worth mentioning that you are also using implicit differentiation here (not just the product and chain rules). Second, your answer is quite difficult to follow---it would be vastly improved with a little MathJax formatting. Finally, this question already has several answers---what does your answer add that hasn't been said already?
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jun 20 '18 at 0:19
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$begingroup$
What definition of exponentiation are you using?
$endgroup$
– user7530
Oct 28 '13 at 19:01