Question on the reasoning behind determining surjectivity of a function












1














I understand the idea of surjectivity and its definition:
"A function f is surjective if f:A->B if $forall yin Y,exists x in X$ such that $y=f(x)$"
However I have a question on the following excerpt from a textbook:
"Given the function f:R->R where $f(x)=x+1$ determine whether the function is a surjection.(R for the set of all real numbers)



Solution: for sujectivity we rewrite the definition as a universal implication:



$yin R implies exists x in R $ such that $y=f(x)$
'
I understand up to this point. But my issue is with the following:



' then we put the definition of the function into this implication: $yin RLeftarrowRightarrow y=f(x)LeftarrowRightarrow y=x+1LeftarrowRightarrow x=y-1$ which tells us that given y in the codomain R then $y=f(x)$ if $x=y-1$. Hence f is surjective'



My question refers to the first part of the implication " $yin R LeftarrowRightarrow y=f(x)LeftarrowRightarrow y=x+1$"
How/ does y being in the codomain imply that y=f(x) ? (does it?)










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  • 5




    By definition, $y$ is in the codomain if and only if there exists an $x$ such that $y=f(x).$ What's the problem?
    – saulspatz
    Dec 27 '18 at 18:56












  • @saulspatz that's very much not a common definition of codomain in this sort of context. What you have given is the definition of the "image" of the function (often called "range", but range is ambiguous).
    – Mark S.
    Dec 27 '18 at 19:46






  • 1




    But can't there be a y in the codomain that doesn't have a pre-image under f ?
    – stochasticmrfox
    Dec 27 '18 at 20:11












  • @stochasticmrfox Yes, "a priori" (before you do any work), you're right that there could be a $y$ in the codomain that doesn't have a pre-image under $f$. saulspatz may be using a different definition of image. But you do get that implication you're worried about for this particular $f$ after you go through the rest of the argument. I have posted an answer trying to clarify.
    – Mark S.
    Dec 31 '18 at 13:08
















1














I understand the idea of surjectivity and its definition:
"A function f is surjective if f:A->B if $forall yin Y,exists x in X$ such that $y=f(x)$"
However I have a question on the following excerpt from a textbook:
"Given the function f:R->R where $f(x)=x+1$ determine whether the function is a surjection.(R for the set of all real numbers)



Solution: for sujectivity we rewrite the definition as a universal implication:



$yin R implies exists x in R $ such that $y=f(x)$
'
I understand up to this point. But my issue is with the following:



' then we put the definition of the function into this implication: $yin RLeftarrowRightarrow y=f(x)LeftarrowRightarrow y=x+1LeftarrowRightarrow x=y-1$ which tells us that given y in the codomain R then $y=f(x)$ if $x=y-1$. Hence f is surjective'



My question refers to the first part of the implication " $yin R LeftarrowRightarrow y=f(x)LeftarrowRightarrow y=x+1$"
How/ does y being in the codomain imply that y=f(x) ? (does it?)










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 5




    By definition, $y$ is in the codomain if and only if there exists an $x$ such that $y=f(x).$ What's the problem?
    – saulspatz
    Dec 27 '18 at 18:56












  • @saulspatz that's very much not a common definition of codomain in this sort of context. What you have given is the definition of the "image" of the function (often called "range", but range is ambiguous).
    – Mark S.
    Dec 27 '18 at 19:46






  • 1




    But can't there be a y in the codomain that doesn't have a pre-image under f ?
    – stochasticmrfox
    Dec 27 '18 at 20:11












  • @stochasticmrfox Yes, "a priori" (before you do any work), you're right that there could be a $y$ in the codomain that doesn't have a pre-image under $f$. saulspatz may be using a different definition of image. But you do get that implication you're worried about for this particular $f$ after you go through the rest of the argument. I have posted an answer trying to clarify.
    – Mark S.
    Dec 31 '18 at 13:08














1












1








1







I understand the idea of surjectivity and its definition:
"A function f is surjective if f:A->B if $forall yin Y,exists x in X$ such that $y=f(x)$"
However I have a question on the following excerpt from a textbook:
"Given the function f:R->R where $f(x)=x+1$ determine whether the function is a surjection.(R for the set of all real numbers)



Solution: for sujectivity we rewrite the definition as a universal implication:



$yin R implies exists x in R $ such that $y=f(x)$
'
I understand up to this point. But my issue is with the following:



' then we put the definition of the function into this implication: $yin RLeftarrowRightarrow y=f(x)LeftarrowRightarrow y=x+1LeftarrowRightarrow x=y-1$ which tells us that given y in the codomain R then $y=f(x)$ if $x=y-1$. Hence f is surjective'



My question refers to the first part of the implication " $yin R LeftarrowRightarrow y=f(x)LeftarrowRightarrow y=x+1$"
How/ does y being in the codomain imply that y=f(x) ? (does it?)










share|cite|improve this question















I understand the idea of surjectivity and its definition:
"A function f is surjective if f:A->B if $forall yin Y,exists x in X$ such that $y=f(x)$"
However I have a question on the following excerpt from a textbook:
"Given the function f:R->R where $f(x)=x+1$ determine whether the function is a surjection.(R for the set of all real numbers)



Solution: for sujectivity we rewrite the definition as a universal implication:



$yin R implies exists x in R $ such that $y=f(x)$
'
I understand up to this point. But my issue is with the following:



' then we put the definition of the function into this implication: $yin RLeftarrowRightarrow y=f(x)LeftarrowRightarrow y=x+1LeftarrowRightarrow x=y-1$ which tells us that given y in the codomain R then $y=f(x)$ if $x=y-1$. Hence f is surjective'



My question refers to the first part of the implication " $yin R LeftarrowRightarrow y=f(x)LeftarrowRightarrow y=x+1$"
How/ does y being in the codomain imply that y=f(x) ? (does it?)







functions foundations






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share|cite|improve this question













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share|cite|improve this question








edited Dec 27 '18 at 20:16

























asked Dec 27 '18 at 18:47









stochasticmrfox

506




506








  • 5




    By definition, $y$ is in the codomain if and only if there exists an $x$ such that $y=f(x).$ What's the problem?
    – saulspatz
    Dec 27 '18 at 18:56












  • @saulspatz that's very much not a common definition of codomain in this sort of context. What you have given is the definition of the "image" of the function (often called "range", but range is ambiguous).
    – Mark S.
    Dec 27 '18 at 19:46






  • 1




    But can't there be a y in the codomain that doesn't have a pre-image under f ?
    – stochasticmrfox
    Dec 27 '18 at 20:11












  • @stochasticmrfox Yes, "a priori" (before you do any work), you're right that there could be a $y$ in the codomain that doesn't have a pre-image under $f$. saulspatz may be using a different definition of image. But you do get that implication you're worried about for this particular $f$ after you go through the rest of the argument. I have posted an answer trying to clarify.
    – Mark S.
    Dec 31 '18 at 13:08














  • 5




    By definition, $y$ is in the codomain if and only if there exists an $x$ such that $y=f(x).$ What's the problem?
    – saulspatz
    Dec 27 '18 at 18:56












  • @saulspatz that's very much not a common definition of codomain in this sort of context. What you have given is the definition of the "image" of the function (often called "range", but range is ambiguous).
    – Mark S.
    Dec 27 '18 at 19:46






  • 1




    But can't there be a y in the codomain that doesn't have a pre-image under f ?
    – stochasticmrfox
    Dec 27 '18 at 20:11












  • @stochasticmrfox Yes, "a priori" (before you do any work), you're right that there could be a $y$ in the codomain that doesn't have a pre-image under $f$. saulspatz may be using a different definition of image. But you do get that implication you're worried about for this particular $f$ after you go through the rest of the argument. I have posted an answer trying to clarify.
    – Mark S.
    Dec 31 '18 at 13:08








5




5




By definition, $y$ is in the codomain if and only if there exists an $x$ such that $y=f(x).$ What's the problem?
– saulspatz
Dec 27 '18 at 18:56






By definition, $y$ is in the codomain if and only if there exists an $x$ such that $y=f(x).$ What's the problem?
– saulspatz
Dec 27 '18 at 18:56














@saulspatz that's very much not a common definition of codomain in this sort of context. What you have given is the definition of the "image" of the function (often called "range", but range is ambiguous).
– Mark S.
Dec 27 '18 at 19:46




@saulspatz that's very much not a common definition of codomain in this sort of context. What you have given is the definition of the "image" of the function (often called "range", but range is ambiguous).
– Mark S.
Dec 27 '18 at 19:46




1




1




But can't there be a y in the codomain that doesn't have a pre-image under f ?
– stochasticmrfox
Dec 27 '18 at 20:11






But can't there be a y in the codomain that doesn't have a pre-image under f ?
– stochasticmrfox
Dec 27 '18 at 20:11














@stochasticmrfox Yes, "a priori" (before you do any work), you're right that there could be a $y$ in the codomain that doesn't have a pre-image under $f$. saulspatz may be using a different definition of image. But you do get that implication you're worried about for this particular $f$ after you go through the rest of the argument. I have posted an answer trying to clarify.
– Mark S.
Dec 31 '18 at 13:08




@stochasticmrfox Yes, "a priori" (before you do any work), you're right that there could be a $y$ in the codomain that doesn't have a pre-image under $f$. saulspatz may be using a different definition of image. But you do get that implication you're worried about for this particular $f$ after you go through the rest of the argument. I have posted an answer trying to clarify.
– Mark S.
Dec 31 '18 at 13:08










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We are given $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ given by $f(x)=x+1$, and we wish to see if it's surjective. As the book says, the meaning of "$f$ is surjective" here could be written $yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)$ (with an implied $forall y$).



Then the next part of the book is written in a concise way that I agree is a bit confusing. Here is a rewrite with more words that might clarify what they intended. It's way more words than would be required for a proof, but I wanted to make sure I clarify what's going on.





Let's hope this function is surjective, and so let's use the definition to write in what we hope to prove. Substituting in the definition for $f(x)$ (in other words, using the fact that $y=f(x)iff y=x+1$), we see that we want "$yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1$". Note that $y=x+1iff x=y-1$, so it's enough to prove "$yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1$". But now this is kind of obvious, If $y$ is a real number, then $y-1$ is certainly a real number that equals $y-1$.



Since this is true, the equivalences mean that the original goal "$f$ is surjective" is true as well. $square$





The important facts of the discussion above might be summarized $$yinmathbb R iff exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1$$ where the first forward implication you were worried about is only known at the end, since the argument actually went something like $$yinmathbb R implies exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1iff exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)$$ (and $exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)implies yinmathbb R$ is just a side comment following from the fact that $mathbb R$ is the codomain).



To add on to the above confusion about the order of implications, the author left implicit all of the $exists x$ quantifiers in the chain of reasoning.






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    We are given $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ given by $f(x)=x+1$, and we wish to see if it's surjective. As the book says, the meaning of "$f$ is surjective" here could be written $yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)$ (with an implied $forall y$).



    Then the next part of the book is written in a concise way that I agree is a bit confusing. Here is a rewrite with more words that might clarify what they intended. It's way more words than would be required for a proof, but I wanted to make sure I clarify what's going on.





    Let's hope this function is surjective, and so let's use the definition to write in what we hope to prove. Substituting in the definition for $f(x)$ (in other words, using the fact that $y=f(x)iff y=x+1$), we see that we want "$yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1$". Note that $y=x+1iff x=y-1$, so it's enough to prove "$yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1$". But now this is kind of obvious, If $y$ is a real number, then $y-1$ is certainly a real number that equals $y-1$.



    Since this is true, the equivalences mean that the original goal "$f$ is surjective" is true as well. $square$





    The important facts of the discussion above might be summarized $$yinmathbb R iff exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1$$ where the first forward implication you were worried about is only known at the end, since the argument actually went something like $$yinmathbb R implies exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1iff exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)$$ (and $exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)implies yinmathbb R$ is just a side comment following from the fact that $mathbb R$ is the codomain).



    To add on to the above confusion about the order of implications, the author left implicit all of the $exists x$ quantifiers in the chain of reasoning.






    share|cite|improve this answer


























      0














      We are given $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ given by $f(x)=x+1$, and we wish to see if it's surjective. As the book says, the meaning of "$f$ is surjective" here could be written $yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)$ (with an implied $forall y$).



      Then the next part of the book is written in a concise way that I agree is a bit confusing. Here is a rewrite with more words that might clarify what they intended. It's way more words than would be required for a proof, but I wanted to make sure I clarify what's going on.





      Let's hope this function is surjective, and so let's use the definition to write in what we hope to prove. Substituting in the definition for $f(x)$ (in other words, using the fact that $y=f(x)iff y=x+1$), we see that we want "$yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1$". Note that $y=x+1iff x=y-1$, so it's enough to prove "$yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1$". But now this is kind of obvious, If $y$ is a real number, then $y-1$ is certainly a real number that equals $y-1$.



      Since this is true, the equivalences mean that the original goal "$f$ is surjective" is true as well. $square$





      The important facts of the discussion above might be summarized $$yinmathbb R iff exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1$$ where the first forward implication you were worried about is only known at the end, since the argument actually went something like $$yinmathbb R implies exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1iff exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)$$ (and $exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)implies yinmathbb R$ is just a side comment following from the fact that $mathbb R$ is the codomain).



      To add on to the above confusion about the order of implications, the author left implicit all of the $exists x$ quantifiers in the chain of reasoning.






      share|cite|improve this answer
























        0












        0








        0






        We are given $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ given by $f(x)=x+1$, and we wish to see if it's surjective. As the book says, the meaning of "$f$ is surjective" here could be written $yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)$ (with an implied $forall y$).



        Then the next part of the book is written in a concise way that I agree is a bit confusing. Here is a rewrite with more words that might clarify what they intended. It's way more words than would be required for a proof, but I wanted to make sure I clarify what's going on.





        Let's hope this function is surjective, and so let's use the definition to write in what we hope to prove. Substituting in the definition for $f(x)$ (in other words, using the fact that $y=f(x)iff y=x+1$), we see that we want "$yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1$". Note that $y=x+1iff x=y-1$, so it's enough to prove "$yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1$". But now this is kind of obvious, If $y$ is a real number, then $y-1$ is certainly a real number that equals $y-1$.



        Since this is true, the equivalences mean that the original goal "$f$ is surjective" is true as well. $square$





        The important facts of the discussion above might be summarized $$yinmathbb R iff exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1$$ where the first forward implication you were worried about is only known at the end, since the argument actually went something like $$yinmathbb R implies exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1iff exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)$$ (and $exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)implies yinmathbb R$ is just a side comment following from the fact that $mathbb R$ is the codomain).



        To add on to the above confusion about the order of implications, the author left implicit all of the $exists x$ quantifiers in the chain of reasoning.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        We are given $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ given by $f(x)=x+1$, and we wish to see if it's surjective. As the book says, the meaning of "$f$ is surjective" here could be written $yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)$ (with an implied $forall y$).



        Then the next part of the book is written in a concise way that I agree is a bit confusing. Here is a rewrite with more words that might clarify what they intended. It's way more words than would be required for a proof, but I wanted to make sure I clarify what's going on.





        Let's hope this function is surjective, and so let's use the definition to write in what we hope to prove. Substituting in the definition for $f(x)$ (in other words, using the fact that $y=f(x)iff y=x+1$), we see that we want "$yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1$". Note that $y=x+1iff x=y-1$, so it's enough to prove "$yinmathbb Rimpliesexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1$". But now this is kind of obvious, If $y$ is a real number, then $y-1$ is certainly a real number that equals $y-1$.



        Since this is true, the equivalences mean that the original goal "$f$ is surjective" is true as well. $square$





        The important facts of the discussion above might be summarized $$yinmathbb R iff exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1$$ where the first forward implication you were worried about is only known at the end, since the argument actually went something like $$yinmathbb R implies exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }x=y-1iffexists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=x+1iff exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)$$ (and $exists xinmathbb Rtext{ s.t. }y=f(x)implies yinmathbb R$ is just a side comment following from the fact that $mathbb R$ is the codomain).



        To add on to the above confusion about the order of implications, the author left implicit all of the $exists x$ quantifiers in the chain of reasoning.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Dec 31 '18 at 13:04









        Mark S.

        11.7k22669




        11.7k22669






























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