Does the function $f(x)=x$, $xin (0,1)$ have a maximum and minimum value?












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My book says that since we cannot determine the value of x when it is just less than 1 and just greater than 0, hence the function does not have a maxima or minima. But the fact confuses me because although we cannot determine those values, they still exist. Where am I going wrong?










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  • $begingroup$
    Here is an intuition why there is no maximum nor minimum value : Suppose you find $x in (0,1)$ such that $f(x)$ is the maximum. Since $(0,1)$ is an open set, for any x, you can find another point right next to it that is greater. Therefore the maximum was not one and therefore there exist none.
    $endgroup$
    – Alan Simonin
    Mar 15 '15 at 12:19












  • $begingroup$
    I think the source of your confusion is how you use the word "value". The numbers $0$ and $1$ exist, but they are not values of your function. (There is no point $x$ in the interval $0<x<1$ such that function's value $f(x)$ at that point is $0$ or $1$.)
    $endgroup$
    – Hans Lundmark
    Mar 15 '15 at 13:27
















3












$begingroup$


My book says that since we cannot determine the value of x when it is just less than 1 and just greater than 0, hence the function does not have a maxima or minima. But the fact confuses me because although we cannot determine those values, they still exist. Where am I going wrong?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Here is an intuition why there is no maximum nor minimum value : Suppose you find $x in (0,1)$ such that $f(x)$ is the maximum. Since $(0,1)$ is an open set, for any x, you can find another point right next to it that is greater. Therefore the maximum was not one and therefore there exist none.
    $endgroup$
    – Alan Simonin
    Mar 15 '15 at 12:19












  • $begingroup$
    I think the source of your confusion is how you use the word "value". The numbers $0$ and $1$ exist, but they are not values of your function. (There is no point $x$ in the interval $0<x<1$ such that function's value $f(x)$ at that point is $0$ or $1$.)
    $endgroup$
    – Hans Lundmark
    Mar 15 '15 at 13:27














3












3








3





$begingroup$


My book says that since we cannot determine the value of x when it is just less than 1 and just greater than 0, hence the function does not have a maxima or minima. But the fact confuses me because although we cannot determine those values, they still exist. Where am I going wrong?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




My book says that since we cannot determine the value of x when it is just less than 1 and just greater than 0, hence the function does not have a maxima or minima. But the fact confuses me because although we cannot determine those values, they still exist. Where am I going wrong?







calculus derivatives






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edited Mar 15 '15 at 12:13









Ant

17.4k22874




17.4k22874










asked Mar 15 '15 at 12:11









the_random_guy42the_random_guy42

20817




20817












  • $begingroup$
    Here is an intuition why there is no maximum nor minimum value : Suppose you find $x in (0,1)$ such that $f(x)$ is the maximum. Since $(0,1)$ is an open set, for any x, you can find another point right next to it that is greater. Therefore the maximum was not one and therefore there exist none.
    $endgroup$
    – Alan Simonin
    Mar 15 '15 at 12:19












  • $begingroup$
    I think the source of your confusion is how you use the word "value". The numbers $0$ and $1$ exist, but they are not values of your function. (There is no point $x$ in the interval $0<x<1$ such that function's value $f(x)$ at that point is $0$ or $1$.)
    $endgroup$
    – Hans Lundmark
    Mar 15 '15 at 13:27


















  • $begingroup$
    Here is an intuition why there is no maximum nor minimum value : Suppose you find $x in (0,1)$ such that $f(x)$ is the maximum. Since $(0,1)$ is an open set, for any x, you can find another point right next to it that is greater. Therefore the maximum was not one and therefore there exist none.
    $endgroup$
    – Alan Simonin
    Mar 15 '15 at 12:19












  • $begingroup$
    I think the source of your confusion is how you use the word "value". The numbers $0$ and $1$ exist, but they are not values of your function. (There is no point $x$ in the interval $0<x<1$ such that function's value $f(x)$ at that point is $0$ or $1$.)
    $endgroup$
    – Hans Lundmark
    Mar 15 '15 at 13:27
















$begingroup$
Here is an intuition why there is no maximum nor minimum value : Suppose you find $x in (0,1)$ such that $f(x)$ is the maximum. Since $(0,1)$ is an open set, for any x, you can find another point right next to it that is greater. Therefore the maximum was not one and therefore there exist none.
$endgroup$
– Alan Simonin
Mar 15 '15 at 12:19






$begingroup$
Here is an intuition why there is no maximum nor minimum value : Suppose you find $x in (0,1)$ such that $f(x)$ is the maximum. Since $(0,1)$ is an open set, for any x, you can find another point right next to it that is greater. Therefore the maximum was not one and therefore there exist none.
$endgroup$
– Alan Simonin
Mar 15 '15 at 12:19














$begingroup$
I think the source of your confusion is how you use the word "value". The numbers $0$ and $1$ exist, but they are not values of your function. (There is no point $x$ in the interval $0<x<1$ such that function's value $f(x)$ at that point is $0$ or $1$.)
$endgroup$
– Hans Lundmark
Mar 15 '15 at 13:27




$begingroup$
I think the source of your confusion is how you use the word "value". The numbers $0$ and $1$ exist, but they are not values of your function. (There is no point $x$ in the interval $0<x<1$ such that function's value $f(x)$ at that point is $0$ or $1$.)
$endgroup$
– Hans Lundmark
Mar 15 '15 at 13:27










3 Answers
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active

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5












$begingroup$

No you can't! Remember for the maximum to exist the function actually has to assume that value in some point.



You know that $f(x) = x$ on $(0, 1)$ is always less than $1$, for example. So you can say that $sup_{x in (0,1)} f(x) = 1$



But that does not mean that the maximum of $f(x)$ is $1$, because $f(x)$ is never one, is it?
On the other hand, the maximum cannot be any other number, because for any number $alpha < 1$ the function $f(x)$ is going to assume a value that is bigger than $alpha$ (as long as $x$ is very very close to $1$, $f(x)$ can get aribitrarily close to $1$, but never gets there)



Therefore the maximum does not exist. Same thing for the minimum






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$endgroup$





















    1












    $begingroup$

    The number you "want" to be the maximum, $1$, is called the supremum. It will satisfy your itch.



    Similarly, the infimum is $0$, which is analogous to the minimum.



    The difference is that the supremum needn't be actually achieved at a point of the domain, whereas the maximum must.



    Supremum/infimum are also known as least upper bound/greatest lower bound.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$





















      0












      $begingroup$


      But the fact confuses me because although we cannot determine those values, they still exist.




      No, they don't exist, because they don't exist. It can be shown that there exists no maximum or minimum for the function as defined. Keep in mind what it means for a function to be a minimum or maximum:





      • Maximum: The maximum $f(x)$ occurs at the point $x$ such that $f(x) geq x$ for all $x$ in the domain of $f$.


      • Minimum: The minimum $f(x)$ occurs at the point $x$ such that $f(x) leq x$ for all $x$ in the domain of $f$.


      The implication here is that $f(x)$ exists for some $x$ for it to be an extreme.





      Let's suppose $f(x) = x, x in (0,1)$. Suppose it has a maximum $M$.



      From the definition of $f$, then, it is clear $0 < M < 1$.



      But consider the midpoint of $M$ and $1$. From the above inequality,



      $$frac{M+1}{2} < frac{1+1}{2} = frac{2}{2} = 1 tag 1$$



      $$frac{M+1}{2} > frac{0+1}{2} = frac12 > 0 tag 2$$



      $$frac{M+1}{2} > M iff frac12 > frac M 2 iff 1 > M tag 3$$



      We discuss:





      • $(1)$ and $(2)$ establish the midpoint is in the image of $f$


      • $(3)$ establishes the midpoint is greater than $M$. This only happens if $M < 1$, which is true from $M$'s definition.


      Thus, if $M$ is the maximum, we have $(M+1)/2$ which is greater than $M$ yet also still in the image of $f$. Thus, $M$ is not the maximum, giving us the contradiction that $f$ cannot have a maximum.



      An analogous proof follows for the minimum.






      share|cite|improve this answer









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        3 Answers
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        3 Answers
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        5












        $begingroup$

        No you can't! Remember for the maximum to exist the function actually has to assume that value in some point.



        You know that $f(x) = x$ on $(0, 1)$ is always less than $1$, for example. So you can say that $sup_{x in (0,1)} f(x) = 1$



        But that does not mean that the maximum of $f(x)$ is $1$, because $f(x)$ is never one, is it?
        On the other hand, the maximum cannot be any other number, because for any number $alpha < 1$ the function $f(x)$ is going to assume a value that is bigger than $alpha$ (as long as $x$ is very very close to $1$, $f(x)$ can get aribitrarily close to $1$, but never gets there)



        Therefore the maximum does not exist. Same thing for the minimum






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$


















          5












          $begingroup$

          No you can't! Remember for the maximum to exist the function actually has to assume that value in some point.



          You know that $f(x) = x$ on $(0, 1)$ is always less than $1$, for example. So you can say that $sup_{x in (0,1)} f(x) = 1$



          But that does not mean that the maximum of $f(x)$ is $1$, because $f(x)$ is never one, is it?
          On the other hand, the maximum cannot be any other number, because for any number $alpha < 1$ the function $f(x)$ is going to assume a value that is bigger than $alpha$ (as long as $x$ is very very close to $1$, $f(x)$ can get aribitrarily close to $1$, but never gets there)



          Therefore the maximum does not exist. Same thing for the minimum






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$
















            5












            5








            5





            $begingroup$

            No you can't! Remember for the maximum to exist the function actually has to assume that value in some point.



            You know that $f(x) = x$ on $(0, 1)$ is always less than $1$, for example. So you can say that $sup_{x in (0,1)} f(x) = 1$



            But that does not mean that the maximum of $f(x)$ is $1$, because $f(x)$ is never one, is it?
            On the other hand, the maximum cannot be any other number, because for any number $alpha < 1$ the function $f(x)$ is going to assume a value that is bigger than $alpha$ (as long as $x$ is very very close to $1$, $f(x)$ can get aribitrarily close to $1$, but never gets there)



            Therefore the maximum does not exist. Same thing for the minimum






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            No you can't! Remember for the maximum to exist the function actually has to assume that value in some point.



            You know that $f(x) = x$ on $(0, 1)$ is always less than $1$, for example. So you can say that $sup_{x in (0,1)} f(x) = 1$



            But that does not mean that the maximum of $f(x)$ is $1$, because $f(x)$ is never one, is it?
            On the other hand, the maximum cannot be any other number, because for any number $alpha < 1$ the function $f(x)$ is going to assume a value that is bigger than $alpha$ (as long as $x$ is very very close to $1$, $f(x)$ can get aribitrarily close to $1$, but never gets there)



            Therefore the maximum does not exist. Same thing for the minimum







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Mar 15 '15 at 12:16









            AntAnt

            17.4k22874




            17.4k22874























                1












                $begingroup$

                The number you "want" to be the maximum, $1$, is called the supremum. It will satisfy your itch.



                Similarly, the infimum is $0$, which is analogous to the minimum.



                The difference is that the supremum needn't be actually achieved at a point of the domain, whereas the maximum must.



                Supremum/infimum are also known as least upper bound/greatest lower bound.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$


















                  1












                  $begingroup$

                  The number you "want" to be the maximum, $1$, is called the supremum. It will satisfy your itch.



                  Similarly, the infimum is $0$, which is analogous to the minimum.



                  The difference is that the supremum needn't be actually achieved at a point of the domain, whereas the maximum must.



                  Supremum/infimum are also known as least upper bound/greatest lower bound.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$
















                    1












                    1








                    1





                    $begingroup$

                    The number you "want" to be the maximum, $1$, is called the supremum. It will satisfy your itch.



                    Similarly, the infimum is $0$, which is analogous to the minimum.



                    The difference is that the supremum needn't be actually achieved at a point of the domain, whereas the maximum must.



                    Supremum/infimum are also known as least upper bound/greatest lower bound.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    The number you "want" to be the maximum, $1$, is called the supremum. It will satisfy your itch.



                    Similarly, the infimum is $0$, which is analogous to the minimum.



                    The difference is that the supremum needn't be actually achieved at a point of the domain, whereas the maximum must.



                    Supremum/infimum are also known as least upper bound/greatest lower bound.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered Mar 15 '15 at 13:05









                    MPWMPW

                    29.9k12056




                    29.9k12056























                        0












                        $begingroup$


                        But the fact confuses me because although we cannot determine those values, they still exist.




                        No, they don't exist, because they don't exist. It can be shown that there exists no maximum or minimum for the function as defined. Keep in mind what it means for a function to be a minimum or maximum:





                        • Maximum: The maximum $f(x)$ occurs at the point $x$ such that $f(x) geq x$ for all $x$ in the domain of $f$.


                        • Minimum: The minimum $f(x)$ occurs at the point $x$ such that $f(x) leq x$ for all $x$ in the domain of $f$.


                        The implication here is that $f(x)$ exists for some $x$ for it to be an extreme.





                        Let's suppose $f(x) = x, x in (0,1)$. Suppose it has a maximum $M$.



                        From the definition of $f$, then, it is clear $0 < M < 1$.



                        But consider the midpoint of $M$ and $1$. From the above inequality,



                        $$frac{M+1}{2} < frac{1+1}{2} = frac{2}{2} = 1 tag 1$$



                        $$frac{M+1}{2} > frac{0+1}{2} = frac12 > 0 tag 2$$



                        $$frac{M+1}{2} > M iff frac12 > frac M 2 iff 1 > M tag 3$$



                        We discuss:





                        • $(1)$ and $(2)$ establish the midpoint is in the image of $f$


                        • $(3)$ establishes the midpoint is greater than $M$. This only happens if $M < 1$, which is true from $M$'s definition.


                        Thus, if $M$ is the maximum, we have $(M+1)/2$ which is greater than $M$ yet also still in the image of $f$. Thus, $M$ is not the maximum, giving us the contradiction that $f$ cannot have a maximum.



                        An analogous proof follows for the minimum.






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$


















                          0












                          $begingroup$


                          But the fact confuses me because although we cannot determine those values, they still exist.




                          No, they don't exist, because they don't exist. It can be shown that there exists no maximum or minimum for the function as defined. Keep in mind what it means for a function to be a minimum or maximum:





                          • Maximum: The maximum $f(x)$ occurs at the point $x$ such that $f(x) geq x$ for all $x$ in the domain of $f$.


                          • Minimum: The minimum $f(x)$ occurs at the point $x$ such that $f(x) leq x$ for all $x$ in the domain of $f$.


                          The implication here is that $f(x)$ exists for some $x$ for it to be an extreme.





                          Let's suppose $f(x) = x, x in (0,1)$. Suppose it has a maximum $M$.



                          From the definition of $f$, then, it is clear $0 < M < 1$.



                          But consider the midpoint of $M$ and $1$. From the above inequality,



                          $$frac{M+1}{2} < frac{1+1}{2} = frac{2}{2} = 1 tag 1$$



                          $$frac{M+1}{2} > frac{0+1}{2} = frac12 > 0 tag 2$$



                          $$frac{M+1}{2} > M iff frac12 > frac M 2 iff 1 > M tag 3$$



                          We discuss:





                          • $(1)$ and $(2)$ establish the midpoint is in the image of $f$


                          • $(3)$ establishes the midpoint is greater than $M$. This only happens if $M < 1$, which is true from $M$'s definition.


                          Thus, if $M$ is the maximum, we have $(M+1)/2$ which is greater than $M$ yet also still in the image of $f$. Thus, $M$ is not the maximum, giving us the contradiction that $f$ cannot have a maximum.



                          An analogous proof follows for the minimum.






                          share|cite|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$
















                            0












                            0








                            0





                            $begingroup$


                            But the fact confuses me because although we cannot determine those values, they still exist.




                            No, they don't exist, because they don't exist. It can be shown that there exists no maximum or minimum for the function as defined. Keep in mind what it means for a function to be a minimum or maximum:





                            • Maximum: The maximum $f(x)$ occurs at the point $x$ such that $f(x) geq x$ for all $x$ in the domain of $f$.


                            • Minimum: The minimum $f(x)$ occurs at the point $x$ such that $f(x) leq x$ for all $x$ in the domain of $f$.


                            The implication here is that $f(x)$ exists for some $x$ for it to be an extreme.





                            Let's suppose $f(x) = x, x in (0,1)$. Suppose it has a maximum $M$.



                            From the definition of $f$, then, it is clear $0 < M < 1$.



                            But consider the midpoint of $M$ and $1$. From the above inequality,



                            $$frac{M+1}{2} < frac{1+1}{2} = frac{2}{2} = 1 tag 1$$



                            $$frac{M+1}{2} > frac{0+1}{2} = frac12 > 0 tag 2$$



                            $$frac{M+1}{2} > M iff frac12 > frac M 2 iff 1 > M tag 3$$



                            We discuss:





                            • $(1)$ and $(2)$ establish the midpoint is in the image of $f$


                            • $(3)$ establishes the midpoint is greater than $M$. This only happens if $M < 1$, which is true from $M$'s definition.


                            Thus, if $M$ is the maximum, we have $(M+1)/2$ which is greater than $M$ yet also still in the image of $f$. Thus, $M$ is not the maximum, giving us the contradiction that $f$ cannot have a maximum.



                            An analogous proof follows for the minimum.






                            share|cite|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$




                            But the fact confuses me because although we cannot determine those values, they still exist.




                            No, they don't exist, because they don't exist. It can be shown that there exists no maximum or minimum for the function as defined. Keep in mind what it means for a function to be a minimum or maximum:





                            • Maximum: The maximum $f(x)$ occurs at the point $x$ such that $f(x) geq x$ for all $x$ in the domain of $f$.


                            • Minimum: The minimum $f(x)$ occurs at the point $x$ such that $f(x) leq x$ for all $x$ in the domain of $f$.


                            The implication here is that $f(x)$ exists for some $x$ for it to be an extreme.





                            Let's suppose $f(x) = x, x in (0,1)$. Suppose it has a maximum $M$.



                            From the definition of $f$, then, it is clear $0 < M < 1$.



                            But consider the midpoint of $M$ and $1$. From the above inequality,



                            $$frac{M+1}{2} < frac{1+1}{2} = frac{2}{2} = 1 tag 1$$



                            $$frac{M+1}{2} > frac{0+1}{2} = frac12 > 0 tag 2$$



                            $$frac{M+1}{2} > M iff frac12 > frac M 2 iff 1 > M tag 3$$



                            We discuss:





                            • $(1)$ and $(2)$ establish the midpoint is in the image of $f$


                            • $(3)$ establishes the midpoint is greater than $M$. This only happens if $M < 1$, which is true from $M$'s definition.


                            Thus, if $M$ is the maximum, we have $(M+1)/2$ which is greater than $M$ yet also still in the image of $f$. Thus, $M$ is not the maximum, giving us the contradiction that $f$ cannot have a maximum.



                            An analogous proof follows for the minimum.







                            share|cite|improve this answer












                            share|cite|improve this answer



                            share|cite|improve this answer










                            answered Jan 1 at 12:20









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