Logic in Philosophy vs. Mathematical Logic












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At my university, students majoring in philosophy take a course called "Logic in Philosophy" and there is also a course offered in the Math Department called "Mathematical Logic". There are also different books published in each field (Logic for Philosophy by Sider vs. Mathematical Logic by Enderton and Ebbinghaus).



Are these two distinct fields? If so, do they share common elements, concepts, and terminology/definitions?










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  • 2




    Not distinct, but there are peculiarities to both; and yes. What these courses are at your university will depend a great deal on their level and their lecturers. Email them and ask for a detailed syllabus.
    – Simon S
    Mar 8 '15 at 1:38








  • 2




    Probably the biggest difference between mathematical logic and general logic(logic for philosophy) is that mathematical logic is essentially strictly concerned with deductive logic. A good course on logic for a philosophy program should cover deductive, inductive, abductive, meta-logic, and different logical systems(belief logic, modal logic, etc.). Also, mathematical logic would probably look at examples of mathematical proofs, whereas logic for philosophy will cover a wide range of scenarios and thought experiments.
    – SE318
    Mar 8 '15 at 1:55






  • 1




    If you check with the CS department they might even have a course called "logic in/for computer science" or something like that (a place I worked at had.) Some core elements are the same, but what more advanced topics are interest in each field. Wikipedia has some pages for en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_in_computer_science and something rather useless on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_logic You should also check the tables of contents of the books you've mentioned. You can preview them on Google Books etc.
    – Fizz
    Mar 8 '15 at 1:56








  • 2




    Actually, there used to be a more meaningful article on "philosophical logic" on Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/w/… but a certain "Annoyed Logician" vandalized it to its present state.
    – Fizz
    Mar 8 '15 at 2:01








  • 1




    The two books you seem to have mentioned: have tocs online: tedsider.org/books/lfp_toc.pdf and respectively math.ucla.edu/~hbe/amil/tc.html (The one by Ebbinghaus is a different book, as far as I can tell. toc of that: home.mathematik.uni-freiburg.de/hde/hde/LogicContents.pdf)
    – Fizz
    Mar 8 '15 at 2:36


















10














At my university, students majoring in philosophy take a course called "Logic in Philosophy" and there is also a course offered in the Math Department called "Mathematical Logic". There are also different books published in each field (Logic for Philosophy by Sider vs. Mathematical Logic by Enderton and Ebbinghaus).



Are these two distinct fields? If so, do they share common elements, concepts, and terminology/definitions?










share|cite|improve this question


















  • 2




    Not distinct, but there are peculiarities to both; and yes. What these courses are at your university will depend a great deal on their level and their lecturers. Email them and ask for a detailed syllabus.
    – Simon S
    Mar 8 '15 at 1:38








  • 2




    Probably the biggest difference between mathematical logic and general logic(logic for philosophy) is that mathematical logic is essentially strictly concerned with deductive logic. A good course on logic for a philosophy program should cover deductive, inductive, abductive, meta-logic, and different logical systems(belief logic, modal logic, etc.). Also, mathematical logic would probably look at examples of mathematical proofs, whereas logic for philosophy will cover a wide range of scenarios and thought experiments.
    – SE318
    Mar 8 '15 at 1:55






  • 1




    If you check with the CS department they might even have a course called "logic in/for computer science" or something like that (a place I worked at had.) Some core elements are the same, but what more advanced topics are interest in each field. Wikipedia has some pages for en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_in_computer_science and something rather useless on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_logic You should also check the tables of contents of the books you've mentioned. You can preview them on Google Books etc.
    – Fizz
    Mar 8 '15 at 1:56








  • 2




    Actually, there used to be a more meaningful article on "philosophical logic" on Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/w/… but a certain "Annoyed Logician" vandalized it to its present state.
    – Fizz
    Mar 8 '15 at 2:01








  • 1




    The two books you seem to have mentioned: have tocs online: tedsider.org/books/lfp_toc.pdf and respectively math.ucla.edu/~hbe/amil/tc.html (The one by Ebbinghaus is a different book, as far as I can tell. toc of that: home.mathematik.uni-freiburg.de/hde/hde/LogicContents.pdf)
    – Fizz
    Mar 8 '15 at 2:36
















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At my university, students majoring in philosophy take a course called "Logic in Philosophy" and there is also a course offered in the Math Department called "Mathematical Logic". There are also different books published in each field (Logic for Philosophy by Sider vs. Mathematical Logic by Enderton and Ebbinghaus).



Are these two distinct fields? If so, do they share common elements, concepts, and terminology/definitions?










share|cite|improve this question













At my university, students majoring in philosophy take a course called "Logic in Philosophy" and there is also a course offered in the Math Department called "Mathematical Logic". There are also different books published in each field (Logic for Philosophy by Sider vs. Mathematical Logic by Enderton and Ebbinghaus).



Are these two distinct fields? If so, do they share common elements, concepts, and terminology/definitions?







logic soft-question






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asked Mar 8 '15 at 1:36









TSJ

339211




339211








  • 2




    Not distinct, but there are peculiarities to both; and yes. What these courses are at your university will depend a great deal on their level and their lecturers. Email them and ask for a detailed syllabus.
    – Simon S
    Mar 8 '15 at 1:38








  • 2




    Probably the biggest difference between mathematical logic and general logic(logic for philosophy) is that mathematical logic is essentially strictly concerned with deductive logic. A good course on logic for a philosophy program should cover deductive, inductive, abductive, meta-logic, and different logical systems(belief logic, modal logic, etc.). Also, mathematical logic would probably look at examples of mathematical proofs, whereas logic for philosophy will cover a wide range of scenarios and thought experiments.
    – SE318
    Mar 8 '15 at 1:55






  • 1




    If you check with the CS department they might even have a course called "logic in/for computer science" or something like that (a place I worked at had.) Some core elements are the same, but what more advanced topics are interest in each field. Wikipedia has some pages for en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_in_computer_science and something rather useless on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_logic You should also check the tables of contents of the books you've mentioned. You can preview them on Google Books etc.
    – Fizz
    Mar 8 '15 at 1:56








  • 2




    Actually, there used to be a more meaningful article on "philosophical logic" on Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/w/… but a certain "Annoyed Logician" vandalized it to its present state.
    – Fizz
    Mar 8 '15 at 2:01








  • 1




    The two books you seem to have mentioned: have tocs online: tedsider.org/books/lfp_toc.pdf and respectively math.ucla.edu/~hbe/amil/tc.html (The one by Ebbinghaus is a different book, as far as I can tell. toc of that: home.mathematik.uni-freiburg.de/hde/hde/LogicContents.pdf)
    – Fizz
    Mar 8 '15 at 2:36
















  • 2




    Not distinct, but there are peculiarities to both; and yes. What these courses are at your university will depend a great deal on their level and their lecturers. Email them and ask for a detailed syllabus.
    – Simon S
    Mar 8 '15 at 1:38








  • 2




    Probably the biggest difference between mathematical logic and general logic(logic for philosophy) is that mathematical logic is essentially strictly concerned with deductive logic. A good course on logic for a philosophy program should cover deductive, inductive, abductive, meta-logic, and different logical systems(belief logic, modal logic, etc.). Also, mathematical logic would probably look at examples of mathematical proofs, whereas logic for philosophy will cover a wide range of scenarios and thought experiments.
    – SE318
    Mar 8 '15 at 1:55






  • 1




    If you check with the CS department they might even have a course called "logic in/for computer science" or something like that (a place I worked at had.) Some core elements are the same, but what more advanced topics are interest in each field. Wikipedia has some pages for en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_in_computer_science and something rather useless on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_logic You should also check the tables of contents of the books you've mentioned. You can preview them on Google Books etc.
    – Fizz
    Mar 8 '15 at 1:56








  • 2




    Actually, there used to be a more meaningful article on "philosophical logic" on Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/w/… but a certain "Annoyed Logician" vandalized it to its present state.
    – Fizz
    Mar 8 '15 at 2:01








  • 1




    The two books you seem to have mentioned: have tocs online: tedsider.org/books/lfp_toc.pdf and respectively math.ucla.edu/~hbe/amil/tc.html (The one by Ebbinghaus is a different book, as far as I can tell. toc of that: home.mathematik.uni-freiburg.de/hde/hde/LogicContents.pdf)
    – Fizz
    Mar 8 '15 at 2:36










2




2




Not distinct, but there are peculiarities to both; and yes. What these courses are at your university will depend a great deal on their level and their lecturers. Email them and ask for a detailed syllabus.
– Simon S
Mar 8 '15 at 1:38






Not distinct, but there are peculiarities to both; and yes. What these courses are at your university will depend a great deal on their level and their lecturers. Email them and ask for a detailed syllabus.
– Simon S
Mar 8 '15 at 1:38






2




2




Probably the biggest difference between mathematical logic and general logic(logic for philosophy) is that mathematical logic is essentially strictly concerned with deductive logic. A good course on logic for a philosophy program should cover deductive, inductive, abductive, meta-logic, and different logical systems(belief logic, modal logic, etc.). Also, mathematical logic would probably look at examples of mathematical proofs, whereas logic for philosophy will cover a wide range of scenarios and thought experiments.
– SE318
Mar 8 '15 at 1:55




Probably the biggest difference between mathematical logic and general logic(logic for philosophy) is that mathematical logic is essentially strictly concerned with deductive logic. A good course on logic for a philosophy program should cover deductive, inductive, abductive, meta-logic, and different logical systems(belief logic, modal logic, etc.). Also, mathematical logic would probably look at examples of mathematical proofs, whereas logic for philosophy will cover a wide range of scenarios and thought experiments.
– SE318
Mar 8 '15 at 1:55




1




1




If you check with the CS department they might even have a course called "logic in/for computer science" or something like that (a place I worked at had.) Some core elements are the same, but what more advanced topics are interest in each field. Wikipedia has some pages for en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_in_computer_science and something rather useless on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_logic You should also check the tables of contents of the books you've mentioned. You can preview them on Google Books etc.
– Fizz
Mar 8 '15 at 1:56






If you check with the CS department they might even have a course called "logic in/for computer science" or something like that (a place I worked at had.) Some core elements are the same, but what more advanced topics are interest in each field. Wikipedia has some pages for en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_in_computer_science and something rather useless on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_logic You should also check the tables of contents of the books you've mentioned. You can preview them on Google Books etc.
– Fizz
Mar 8 '15 at 1:56






2




2




Actually, there used to be a more meaningful article on "philosophical logic" on Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/w/… but a certain "Annoyed Logician" vandalized it to its present state.
– Fizz
Mar 8 '15 at 2:01






Actually, there used to be a more meaningful article on "philosophical logic" on Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/w/… but a certain "Annoyed Logician" vandalized it to its present state.
– Fizz
Mar 8 '15 at 2:01






1




1




The two books you seem to have mentioned: have tocs online: tedsider.org/books/lfp_toc.pdf and respectively math.ucla.edu/~hbe/amil/tc.html (The one by Ebbinghaus is a different book, as far as I can tell. toc of that: home.mathematik.uni-freiburg.de/hde/hde/LogicContents.pdf)
– Fizz
Mar 8 '15 at 2:36






The two books you seem to have mentioned: have tocs online: tedsider.org/books/lfp_toc.pdf and respectively math.ucla.edu/~hbe/amil/tc.html (The one by Ebbinghaus is a different book, as far as I can tell. toc of that: home.mathematik.uni-freiburg.de/hde/hde/LogicContents.pdf)
– Fizz
Mar 8 '15 at 2:36












4 Answers
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Students majoring in philosophy take a course called "Logic in
Philosophy" and there is also a course offered in the Math Department
called "Mathematical Logic". Are these two distinct fields? If so, do
they share common elements, concepts, and terminology/definitions?




Three points.



(A) Most philosophy students (at least those "majoring" in philosophy) are expected to do at least a Baby Formal Logic course, often in their very first year. Coverage will vary, but they should pick up an understanding of what makes a formally valid argument, of the truth-functional connectives, of the logic of quantifiers and identity, maybe one or two other things too like familiarity with set notation. This will usually be done very slowly, remembering that most philosophy students have no maths background and many will be symbol-phobic. There may be more formal logic taught later in later years in optional courses, and eventually (though less and less these days) they might be offered a mathematical logic course.



Beginning university mathematics students will at various points, in e.g. courses on discrete mathematics, pick up an understanding of the connectives, of quantifiers, and of course of set notation, as they go along. But they won't usually have a stand-alone course on Baby Formal Logic (which hasn't much mathematical excitement!). So usually the first stand-alone logic course they might be offered is at senior undergraduate/beginning postgraduate course, in which Baby Logic gets covered (again) very fast, but this time with added completeness proofs etc. etc., before going on to other stuff.



So one main difference between an intro course in formal logic for philosophers and the early lectures in a course in mathematical logic for mathematicians is simply speed and level of mathematical sophistication. As noted, by mathematical standards, the combinatorial ideas involved in the philosophers' Baby Formal Logic course are extremely easy and elementary (even if it doesn't always look that way to the students having to take the course!). The same ideas can be covered at a cracking pace at the beginning of a mathematical logic course.



(B) As I said, there may then be more formal logic offered to philosophers in later years in optional courses -- some of these courses covering various things of particular interest to philosophers, but not so much to (most) mathematicians, like modal logic. The second half of Sider's book indicates the sort of coverage typical of such courses. So here the focus of the coverage of courses in philosophy and mathematics department can indeed diverge.



(C) To take up some remarks in other answers, you need to sharply distinguish "Logic for Philosophers", meaning a treatment of some topics in formal logic that are of interest/use to philosophers, from "Philosophical Logic". The latter is a standard label for an area which is really a department of the broader philosophy of language, interested in questions about e.g. the nature of reference, the nature of logical necessity, the nature of a valid argument, the meaning of ordinary language conditionals, and so on. One technique for addressing such questions is to compare conditionals (to run with that example) in ordinary language with various constructed connectives in artificial languages of logic. So languages of formal logic get into the story as useful objects of comparison. And perhaps that's what unites the ragbag of topics in philosophical logic. But still, the real focus of courses on so-called philosophical logic is in issues that arise informally or pre-formally, not centrally in issues of formal logic.






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    2














    The main difference between "Logic in Philosophy" and "Mathematical Logic" is that in the former case logic is used as a tool, while in the latter it is studied for its own sake.



    A Logic class in a Philosophy degree will usually cover sentential, predicate and finally first-order logic (by order of increasing complexity and natural way of learning). At this point, you're able to give a formal expression of philosophical arguments, reason in terms of truth-value, validity and soundness, and you can detect and explain fallacies.



    This is why (elementary, first-order) Logic is such an important tool in Philosophy: you need to be able to understand why the text you're reading is convincing, what the author's thoughts are, how he connects them together, how he draws conclusions from premises and so on. A frequent extension is modal logic, where you introduce the notions of necessity and possibility, and which is the basis for deontic logic - the language of Ethics.



    On the other hand, "Mathematical Logic" uses the power of logic to formulate concepts in an unambiguous language where you can perform operations in order to lay the foundations of mathematics. If you study mathematical logic, you'll be introduced to much more complex types of logic, with which you'll then be able to define rigorously concepts such as theorems, deductions, axioms, sets, functions, graphs, representations, etc. - all of which form the basis for a meta-language that you know as "mathematics".






    share|cite|improve this answer





















    • Just to make sure Demosthene, in the first paragraph, are you saying "Logic in Philosophy" is used a tool, while "Mathematical Logic" is studied for its own sake, or the other way around?
      – TSJ
      Mar 9 '15 at 4:50






    • 1




      @TSJ Essentially, yes. The idea is that you could study Philosophy without taking a logic class, but things would be a bit harder: you would have trouble giving formal definitions of concepts, or explaining complicated arguments, etc. Logic is thus a very useful tool in this situation. On the other hand, when studying Mathematical Logic, you'll discover that mathematics and logic are intrinsically related - in that sense, you'll study logic "for its own sake".
      – Demosthene
      Mar 9 '15 at 7:54



















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    i will attempt an answer in point-by-point kind of way, hope it is useful




    • Mathematical logic is symbolic and formal, Philosophy logic is more informal, more natural language oriented

    • As a result not all the forms of logic in Philosophy can be formaliserd mathematicaly, and vice-versa mathematics can formalise other notions of logic not used in philosophy (e.g toy models etc.)

    • There is an interesting topic in the foundations of mathematics (or mathematical philosophy) which exactly tries to study the connection (or difference) between the philosophical logic and mathematical logic and whether logic is the foundation of mathematics or vice-versa (many schools here with sometimes major differences, i.e formalism, intuitionism, mathematical platonism, mathematical realism, philosophy of probability and inference, etc)


    update



    To address the comments by @Michaelangelo here are some examples, with references, of logic(s) in philosophy different from analytical logic(s):



    Dialectical Logic(s) vs Analytical Logic(s)




    1. Pre-Logic, Formal Logic, Dialectical Logic, marxists.org



    [..]Contrary to formal logic, the law of dialectical logic is that
    everything is mediated therefore everything is itself and at the same
    time not itself. "A is non-A." A is negated.





    1. Formal Logic and Dialectics, marxists.org



    [..]Ilyenkov explains in his essay on Hegel, that Hegel's revolution in
    logic was effected by widening the scope of logic and the field of
    observation upon which the validity of logic could be tested, from
    logic manifested in the articulation of propositions to the
    manifestation of logic in all aspects of human practice.





    1. Dialectics and Logic



    [..]Dialectics and formal logic are sometimes posed as two contrasting forms of reasoning. In this contrast, formal logic is appropriate for
    reasoning about static properties of separate objects involving no
    interaction. To deal with change and interaction it is necessary to
    use the dialectic approach.





    1. Dialectical logic, wikipedia



    [..]Rather than the abstract formalism of traditional logic, dialectical
    logic was meant to be a materialistic examination of concrete forms:
    The logic of motion and change. A logic that is a statement about the
    objective material world.




    Intuitionism vs Formalism



    While being a school of mathematical philosophy, Intuitionism is not analytic, nor its logic.




    1. LEJ Brouwer, Lectures on Intuitionism, marxists.org



    FIRST ACT OF INTUITIONISM



    Completely separating mathematics from mathematical language and hence
    from the phenomena of language described by theoretical logic,
    recognising that intuitionistic mathematics is an essentially
    languageless activity of the mind having its origin in the perception
    of a move of time. This perception of a move of time may be described
    as the falling apart of a life moment into two distinct things, one of
    which gives way to the other, but is retained by memory. If the twoity
    thus born is divested of all quality, it passes into the empty form of
    the common substratum of all twoities. And it is this common
    substratum, this empty form, which is the basic intuition of
    mathematics.




    Informal Logic(s) vs Formal Logic(s)



    Formal Logic(s) do not make full use of natural language constructs like subtleties, ambiguities and shades of meaning.




    1. Informal Logic and the Dialectical Approach to Argument



    INFORMAL LOGIC: ORIGINAL CONCEPTIONS



    In reflecting on the origins of informal logic, Johnson and Blair
    (2002, pp. 340-352; cf. 1980, p. 5) describe it as arising in the
    context of three stream s of criticism to the existing academic logic
    program. First the pedagogical cr itique challenged that the tools of
    logic should be applicable to ever yday reasoning and argument of the
    sorts used in political, social and practical issues. Second the
    internal critique challenged the adequacy of existing tools of logic
    in evaluating everyday argument. Specifically rejected was the
    logical idea of soundness as either a necessary or a sufficient
    criterion for the goodness of arguments, as well as a formalistic
    understandi ng of validity. Finally, the empirical critique challenged
    the ideas that formal deductive logic can provide a theory of good
    reasoning, and that the abil ity to reason well is improved by a
    knowledge of formal deduction. As well, Johnson and Blair (2002, p.
    355) associate the genesis of informal logic with a renewed interest
    in the informal fallacies which were also inadequately treated in
    traditional logic programs of the time.




    While there are philosophical currents that make full use of such features and usualy also have a "poetic" flavor (poetry in philosophy or philosophy in poetry). As such make extended use of poetic tools involving natural language meaning and semantics in complex ways not formalised in formal logic (lets say informal logic).



    Works by great philosophers of the past and present who were also poets (or used such an approach to philosophy) serves most appropriate, like Plato, Hegel, Heraclitus, Borges and so on.






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • The phrase "not all the forms of logic in Philosophy can be formaliserd mathematicaly, and vice-versa mathematics can formalise other notions of logic not used in philosophy" really needs a citation and/or example demonstrating this.
      – Michaelangel007
      Oct 14 '15 at 5:53










    • @Michaelangelo, well ok i would agree, although if one reads some philosophical texts (not dealing with analytic philosophy, e.g dialectics) will encounter this, and vice-versa for mathematical texts. Natural language use in philosophy is another example.
      – Nikos M.
      Oct 14 '15 at 15:31










    • @Michaelangelo, also note that there are philosophical currents which have a "poetic" flavor, meaning they make full use of natural language in their formulation with all the ambiguities, subtleties and shades of meaning..
      – Nikos M.
      Oct 14 '15 at 15:42












    • Pushing the burden of proof onto the reader is not proof. The answer should be expanded to include valid examples (vis a vis both ways), otherwise this looks like yet-another-unsubstantiated claim. Citing a specific book/page# for references would allow the reader to follow this up for those who didn't major in philosophy and mathematics.
      – Michaelangel007
      Oct 15 '15 at 15:52












    • @Michaelangelo there is no proof burden on the reader. i would say self-explanatory, for example toy logic modles are not used in philosophy and full natural language constructs are not used in mathematical logic. This is what is stated. But in any case some examples would be nice. yet i dont see how this is contradicted or unsubstantiated (i suggested the example of dialectical logic e.g A = notA, which is not formalised in analytical logic in its full extend)
      – Nikos M.
      Oct 15 '15 at 16:22



















    -2














    As a mathematician (not a philosopher), I think that the biggest difference between philosophical logic and mathematical logic is that in mathematics we assume the existence of the most fundamental objects that we're trying to study.



    The most common mathematical assumption is the existence of the integers. They have bizarre properties. For example, you can always add one to an integer to get a larger integer, i.e, there's an infinite number of them. Estimates of the number of elementary particles in the visible universe are in the $10^{80}$ to $10^{97}$ range [1], so there might not be $10^{100}$ particles in the universe, yet $10^{100}$ is a well defined integer. $10^{10^{100}}$ is an integer with more digits than there are particles in the universe, yet it "exists", and what's more, I can construct an integer that's larger than it: $10^{10^{100}} + 1$. I can even prove that there are infinitely more integers that are larger than $10^{10^{100}}$.



    I went to college to learn these proofs. Aristophanes would approve. [2]



    Of course, integers do not really exist as physical objects. If we accept the mathematician's claim that they do "exist", then we could do Anselm [3] one better:




    1. Assume the existence of God.

    2. Therefore, God exists.


    I call it the "Mathematician's Proof of the Existence of God".



    I know of no field of philosophy that so cavalierly assumes things into existence, although all philosophical arguments seem to be based on some claims assumed to be true. Once these assumptions are clearly stated, then the same process of logical deduction (or induction) can be applied.



    The great irony here is that by assuming the existence of physically implausible objects like integers and complex numbers, we can construct theories that explain the behavior of the actual physical universe to previously unimaginable precision.






    share|cite|improve this answer



















    • 1




      I don't think this is really accurate, since in mathematics we don't forget our existential assumptions: e.g. when you get down to it, statements like "there is no largest prime" are concluded within some formal system. There's no requirement that we make any existential assumptions beyond those required for basic reasoning - we can always phrase results as "under such-and-such assumptions, ..."
      – Noah Schweber
      Dec 27 '18 at 19:27








    • 1




      In fact, I'd say the situation is precisely the opposite. Mathematics broadly studies the behavior of consistent (so far as we know) objects. In this context it's often useful to work under existential assumptions, but they can always be stripped away, and one of the takeaways from the utility of "unreal" mathematical objects in the "real" world should be that existence is overrated - the conditional results we get under strong existential assumptions often wind up being useful independently of the "truth" of those existential assumptions.
      – Noah Schweber
      Dec 27 '18 at 19:32






    • 1




      Actually I would consider the stand-out behavior of mathematical logic to be how little existential commitment it actually needs to make. And certainly I disagree with your Anselmian riff: we don't, for example, freely conclude the existence of a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture, or even of a non-well-orderable set (that one's more interesting since we can prove that the failure of the axiom of choice is equiconsistent with the axiom of choice, relative to ZF, so - unlike Goldbach so far as we know - it provably won't "cost" us anything). At best, some things are assumed to exist.
      – Noah Schweber
      Dec 27 '18 at 19:35










    • @Noah Schweber: It is remarkable how much can be done with so little existential commitment, but I contend that the existential commitment is larger than is commonly understood. For example, I've come to see Gödel's incompleteness theorems mostly as consequences of the bizarre properties of these things we call "integers". Fundamental to Gödel's argument is the ability to encode a finite sequence of integers into a single integer. No matter how large the numbers are in our sequence, we can always find a larger number that encodes them - and an even larger number that encodes it! Weird...
      – Brent Baccala
      Dec 27 '18 at 19:56










    • These things we call "integers" are not the things that people use to count apples.
      – Brent Baccala
      Dec 27 '18 at 19:59











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    Students majoring in philosophy take a course called "Logic in
    Philosophy" and there is also a course offered in the Math Department
    called "Mathematical Logic". Are these two distinct fields? If so, do
    they share common elements, concepts, and terminology/definitions?




    Three points.



    (A) Most philosophy students (at least those "majoring" in philosophy) are expected to do at least a Baby Formal Logic course, often in their very first year. Coverage will vary, but they should pick up an understanding of what makes a formally valid argument, of the truth-functional connectives, of the logic of quantifiers and identity, maybe one or two other things too like familiarity with set notation. This will usually be done very slowly, remembering that most philosophy students have no maths background and many will be symbol-phobic. There may be more formal logic taught later in later years in optional courses, and eventually (though less and less these days) they might be offered a mathematical logic course.



    Beginning university mathematics students will at various points, in e.g. courses on discrete mathematics, pick up an understanding of the connectives, of quantifiers, and of course of set notation, as they go along. But they won't usually have a stand-alone course on Baby Formal Logic (which hasn't much mathematical excitement!). So usually the first stand-alone logic course they might be offered is at senior undergraduate/beginning postgraduate course, in which Baby Logic gets covered (again) very fast, but this time with added completeness proofs etc. etc., before going on to other stuff.



    So one main difference between an intro course in formal logic for philosophers and the early lectures in a course in mathematical logic for mathematicians is simply speed and level of mathematical sophistication. As noted, by mathematical standards, the combinatorial ideas involved in the philosophers' Baby Formal Logic course are extremely easy and elementary (even if it doesn't always look that way to the students having to take the course!). The same ideas can be covered at a cracking pace at the beginning of a mathematical logic course.



    (B) As I said, there may then be more formal logic offered to philosophers in later years in optional courses -- some of these courses covering various things of particular interest to philosophers, but not so much to (most) mathematicians, like modal logic. The second half of Sider's book indicates the sort of coverage typical of such courses. So here the focus of the coverage of courses in philosophy and mathematics department can indeed diverge.



    (C) To take up some remarks in other answers, you need to sharply distinguish "Logic for Philosophers", meaning a treatment of some topics in formal logic that are of interest/use to philosophers, from "Philosophical Logic". The latter is a standard label for an area which is really a department of the broader philosophy of language, interested in questions about e.g. the nature of reference, the nature of logical necessity, the nature of a valid argument, the meaning of ordinary language conditionals, and so on. One technique for addressing such questions is to compare conditionals (to run with that example) in ordinary language with various constructed connectives in artificial languages of logic. So languages of formal logic get into the story as useful objects of comparison. And perhaps that's what unites the ragbag of topics in philosophical logic. But still, the real focus of courses on so-called philosophical logic is in issues that arise informally or pre-formally, not centrally in issues of formal logic.






    share|cite|improve this answer




























      9















      Students majoring in philosophy take a course called "Logic in
      Philosophy" and there is also a course offered in the Math Department
      called "Mathematical Logic". Are these two distinct fields? If so, do
      they share common elements, concepts, and terminology/definitions?




      Three points.



      (A) Most philosophy students (at least those "majoring" in philosophy) are expected to do at least a Baby Formal Logic course, often in their very first year. Coverage will vary, but they should pick up an understanding of what makes a formally valid argument, of the truth-functional connectives, of the logic of quantifiers and identity, maybe one or two other things too like familiarity with set notation. This will usually be done very slowly, remembering that most philosophy students have no maths background and many will be symbol-phobic. There may be more formal logic taught later in later years in optional courses, and eventually (though less and less these days) they might be offered a mathematical logic course.



      Beginning university mathematics students will at various points, in e.g. courses on discrete mathematics, pick up an understanding of the connectives, of quantifiers, and of course of set notation, as they go along. But they won't usually have a stand-alone course on Baby Formal Logic (which hasn't much mathematical excitement!). So usually the first stand-alone logic course they might be offered is at senior undergraduate/beginning postgraduate course, in which Baby Logic gets covered (again) very fast, but this time with added completeness proofs etc. etc., before going on to other stuff.



      So one main difference between an intro course in formal logic for philosophers and the early lectures in a course in mathematical logic for mathematicians is simply speed and level of mathematical sophistication. As noted, by mathematical standards, the combinatorial ideas involved in the philosophers' Baby Formal Logic course are extremely easy and elementary (even if it doesn't always look that way to the students having to take the course!). The same ideas can be covered at a cracking pace at the beginning of a mathematical logic course.



      (B) As I said, there may then be more formal logic offered to philosophers in later years in optional courses -- some of these courses covering various things of particular interest to philosophers, but not so much to (most) mathematicians, like modal logic. The second half of Sider's book indicates the sort of coverage typical of such courses. So here the focus of the coverage of courses in philosophy and mathematics department can indeed diverge.



      (C) To take up some remarks in other answers, you need to sharply distinguish "Logic for Philosophers", meaning a treatment of some topics in formal logic that are of interest/use to philosophers, from "Philosophical Logic". The latter is a standard label for an area which is really a department of the broader philosophy of language, interested in questions about e.g. the nature of reference, the nature of logical necessity, the nature of a valid argument, the meaning of ordinary language conditionals, and so on. One technique for addressing such questions is to compare conditionals (to run with that example) in ordinary language with various constructed connectives in artificial languages of logic. So languages of formal logic get into the story as useful objects of comparison. And perhaps that's what unites the ragbag of topics in philosophical logic. But still, the real focus of courses on so-called philosophical logic is in issues that arise informally or pre-formally, not centrally in issues of formal logic.






      share|cite|improve this answer


























        9












        9








        9







        Students majoring in philosophy take a course called "Logic in
        Philosophy" and there is also a course offered in the Math Department
        called "Mathematical Logic". Are these two distinct fields? If so, do
        they share common elements, concepts, and terminology/definitions?




        Three points.



        (A) Most philosophy students (at least those "majoring" in philosophy) are expected to do at least a Baby Formal Logic course, often in their very first year. Coverage will vary, but they should pick up an understanding of what makes a formally valid argument, of the truth-functional connectives, of the logic of quantifiers and identity, maybe one or two other things too like familiarity with set notation. This will usually be done very slowly, remembering that most philosophy students have no maths background and many will be symbol-phobic. There may be more formal logic taught later in later years in optional courses, and eventually (though less and less these days) they might be offered a mathematical logic course.



        Beginning university mathematics students will at various points, in e.g. courses on discrete mathematics, pick up an understanding of the connectives, of quantifiers, and of course of set notation, as they go along. But they won't usually have a stand-alone course on Baby Formal Logic (which hasn't much mathematical excitement!). So usually the first stand-alone logic course they might be offered is at senior undergraduate/beginning postgraduate course, in which Baby Logic gets covered (again) very fast, but this time with added completeness proofs etc. etc., before going on to other stuff.



        So one main difference between an intro course in formal logic for philosophers and the early lectures in a course in mathematical logic for mathematicians is simply speed and level of mathematical sophistication. As noted, by mathematical standards, the combinatorial ideas involved in the philosophers' Baby Formal Logic course are extremely easy and elementary (even if it doesn't always look that way to the students having to take the course!). The same ideas can be covered at a cracking pace at the beginning of a mathematical logic course.



        (B) As I said, there may then be more formal logic offered to philosophers in later years in optional courses -- some of these courses covering various things of particular interest to philosophers, but not so much to (most) mathematicians, like modal logic. The second half of Sider's book indicates the sort of coverage typical of such courses. So here the focus of the coverage of courses in philosophy and mathematics department can indeed diverge.



        (C) To take up some remarks in other answers, you need to sharply distinguish "Logic for Philosophers", meaning a treatment of some topics in formal logic that are of interest/use to philosophers, from "Philosophical Logic". The latter is a standard label for an area which is really a department of the broader philosophy of language, interested in questions about e.g. the nature of reference, the nature of logical necessity, the nature of a valid argument, the meaning of ordinary language conditionals, and so on. One technique for addressing such questions is to compare conditionals (to run with that example) in ordinary language with various constructed connectives in artificial languages of logic. So languages of formal logic get into the story as useful objects of comparison. And perhaps that's what unites the ragbag of topics in philosophical logic. But still, the real focus of courses on so-called philosophical logic is in issues that arise informally or pre-formally, not centrally in issues of formal logic.






        share|cite|improve this answer















        Students majoring in philosophy take a course called "Logic in
        Philosophy" and there is also a course offered in the Math Department
        called "Mathematical Logic". Are these two distinct fields? If so, do
        they share common elements, concepts, and terminology/definitions?




        Three points.



        (A) Most philosophy students (at least those "majoring" in philosophy) are expected to do at least a Baby Formal Logic course, often in their very first year. Coverage will vary, but they should pick up an understanding of what makes a formally valid argument, of the truth-functional connectives, of the logic of quantifiers and identity, maybe one or two other things too like familiarity with set notation. This will usually be done very slowly, remembering that most philosophy students have no maths background and many will be symbol-phobic. There may be more formal logic taught later in later years in optional courses, and eventually (though less and less these days) they might be offered a mathematical logic course.



        Beginning university mathematics students will at various points, in e.g. courses on discrete mathematics, pick up an understanding of the connectives, of quantifiers, and of course of set notation, as they go along. But they won't usually have a stand-alone course on Baby Formal Logic (which hasn't much mathematical excitement!). So usually the first stand-alone logic course they might be offered is at senior undergraduate/beginning postgraduate course, in which Baby Logic gets covered (again) very fast, but this time with added completeness proofs etc. etc., before going on to other stuff.



        So one main difference between an intro course in formal logic for philosophers and the early lectures in a course in mathematical logic for mathematicians is simply speed and level of mathematical sophistication. As noted, by mathematical standards, the combinatorial ideas involved in the philosophers' Baby Formal Logic course are extremely easy and elementary (even if it doesn't always look that way to the students having to take the course!). The same ideas can be covered at a cracking pace at the beginning of a mathematical logic course.



        (B) As I said, there may then be more formal logic offered to philosophers in later years in optional courses -- some of these courses covering various things of particular interest to philosophers, but not so much to (most) mathematicians, like modal logic. The second half of Sider's book indicates the sort of coverage typical of such courses. So here the focus of the coverage of courses in philosophy and mathematics department can indeed diverge.



        (C) To take up some remarks in other answers, you need to sharply distinguish "Logic for Philosophers", meaning a treatment of some topics in formal logic that are of interest/use to philosophers, from "Philosophical Logic". The latter is a standard label for an area which is really a department of the broader philosophy of language, interested in questions about e.g. the nature of reference, the nature of logical necessity, the nature of a valid argument, the meaning of ordinary language conditionals, and so on. One technique for addressing such questions is to compare conditionals (to run with that example) in ordinary language with various constructed connectives in artificial languages of logic. So languages of formal logic get into the story as useful objects of comparison. And perhaps that's what unites the ragbag of topics in philosophical logic. But still, the real focus of courses on so-called philosophical logic is in issues that arise informally or pre-formally, not centrally in issues of formal logic.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited Dec 17 '18 at 17:24

























        answered Mar 8 '15 at 14:34









        Peter Smith

        40.5k340120




        40.5k340120























            2














            The main difference between "Logic in Philosophy" and "Mathematical Logic" is that in the former case logic is used as a tool, while in the latter it is studied for its own sake.



            A Logic class in a Philosophy degree will usually cover sentential, predicate and finally first-order logic (by order of increasing complexity and natural way of learning). At this point, you're able to give a formal expression of philosophical arguments, reason in terms of truth-value, validity and soundness, and you can detect and explain fallacies.



            This is why (elementary, first-order) Logic is such an important tool in Philosophy: you need to be able to understand why the text you're reading is convincing, what the author's thoughts are, how he connects them together, how he draws conclusions from premises and so on. A frequent extension is modal logic, where you introduce the notions of necessity and possibility, and which is the basis for deontic logic - the language of Ethics.



            On the other hand, "Mathematical Logic" uses the power of logic to formulate concepts in an unambiguous language where you can perform operations in order to lay the foundations of mathematics. If you study mathematical logic, you'll be introduced to much more complex types of logic, with which you'll then be able to define rigorously concepts such as theorems, deductions, axioms, sets, functions, graphs, representations, etc. - all of which form the basis for a meta-language that you know as "mathematics".






            share|cite|improve this answer





















            • Just to make sure Demosthene, in the first paragraph, are you saying "Logic in Philosophy" is used a tool, while "Mathematical Logic" is studied for its own sake, or the other way around?
              – TSJ
              Mar 9 '15 at 4:50






            • 1




              @TSJ Essentially, yes. The idea is that you could study Philosophy without taking a logic class, but things would be a bit harder: you would have trouble giving formal definitions of concepts, or explaining complicated arguments, etc. Logic is thus a very useful tool in this situation. On the other hand, when studying Mathematical Logic, you'll discover that mathematics and logic are intrinsically related - in that sense, you'll study logic "for its own sake".
              – Demosthene
              Mar 9 '15 at 7:54
















            2














            The main difference between "Logic in Philosophy" and "Mathematical Logic" is that in the former case logic is used as a tool, while in the latter it is studied for its own sake.



            A Logic class in a Philosophy degree will usually cover sentential, predicate and finally first-order logic (by order of increasing complexity and natural way of learning). At this point, you're able to give a formal expression of philosophical arguments, reason in terms of truth-value, validity and soundness, and you can detect and explain fallacies.



            This is why (elementary, first-order) Logic is such an important tool in Philosophy: you need to be able to understand why the text you're reading is convincing, what the author's thoughts are, how he connects them together, how he draws conclusions from premises and so on. A frequent extension is modal logic, where you introduce the notions of necessity and possibility, and which is the basis for deontic logic - the language of Ethics.



            On the other hand, "Mathematical Logic" uses the power of logic to formulate concepts in an unambiguous language where you can perform operations in order to lay the foundations of mathematics. If you study mathematical logic, you'll be introduced to much more complex types of logic, with which you'll then be able to define rigorously concepts such as theorems, deductions, axioms, sets, functions, graphs, representations, etc. - all of which form the basis for a meta-language that you know as "mathematics".






            share|cite|improve this answer





















            • Just to make sure Demosthene, in the first paragraph, are you saying "Logic in Philosophy" is used a tool, while "Mathematical Logic" is studied for its own sake, or the other way around?
              – TSJ
              Mar 9 '15 at 4:50






            • 1




              @TSJ Essentially, yes. The idea is that you could study Philosophy without taking a logic class, but things would be a bit harder: you would have trouble giving formal definitions of concepts, or explaining complicated arguments, etc. Logic is thus a very useful tool in this situation. On the other hand, when studying Mathematical Logic, you'll discover that mathematics and logic are intrinsically related - in that sense, you'll study logic "for its own sake".
              – Demosthene
              Mar 9 '15 at 7:54














            2












            2








            2






            The main difference between "Logic in Philosophy" and "Mathematical Logic" is that in the former case logic is used as a tool, while in the latter it is studied for its own sake.



            A Logic class in a Philosophy degree will usually cover sentential, predicate and finally first-order logic (by order of increasing complexity and natural way of learning). At this point, you're able to give a formal expression of philosophical arguments, reason in terms of truth-value, validity and soundness, and you can detect and explain fallacies.



            This is why (elementary, first-order) Logic is such an important tool in Philosophy: you need to be able to understand why the text you're reading is convincing, what the author's thoughts are, how he connects them together, how he draws conclusions from premises and so on. A frequent extension is modal logic, where you introduce the notions of necessity and possibility, and which is the basis for deontic logic - the language of Ethics.



            On the other hand, "Mathematical Logic" uses the power of logic to formulate concepts in an unambiguous language where you can perform operations in order to lay the foundations of mathematics. If you study mathematical logic, you'll be introduced to much more complex types of logic, with which you'll then be able to define rigorously concepts such as theorems, deductions, axioms, sets, functions, graphs, representations, etc. - all of which form the basis for a meta-language that you know as "mathematics".






            share|cite|improve this answer












            The main difference between "Logic in Philosophy" and "Mathematical Logic" is that in the former case logic is used as a tool, while in the latter it is studied for its own sake.



            A Logic class in a Philosophy degree will usually cover sentential, predicate and finally first-order logic (by order of increasing complexity and natural way of learning). At this point, you're able to give a formal expression of philosophical arguments, reason in terms of truth-value, validity and soundness, and you can detect and explain fallacies.



            This is why (elementary, first-order) Logic is such an important tool in Philosophy: you need to be able to understand why the text you're reading is convincing, what the author's thoughts are, how he connects them together, how he draws conclusions from premises and so on. A frequent extension is modal logic, where you introduce the notions of necessity and possibility, and which is the basis for deontic logic - the language of Ethics.



            On the other hand, "Mathematical Logic" uses the power of logic to formulate concepts in an unambiguous language where you can perform operations in order to lay the foundations of mathematics. If you study mathematical logic, you'll be introduced to much more complex types of logic, with which you'll then be able to define rigorously concepts such as theorems, deductions, axioms, sets, functions, graphs, representations, etc. - all of which form the basis for a meta-language that you know as "mathematics".







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Mar 8 '15 at 2:03









            Demosthene

            4,18711033




            4,18711033












            • Just to make sure Demosthene, in the first paragraph, are you saying "Logic in Philosophy" is used a tool, while "Mathematical Logic" is studied for its own sake, or the other way around?
              – TSJ
              Mar 9 '15 at 4:50






            • 1




              @TSJ Essentially, yes. The idea is that you could study Philosophy without taking a logic class, but things would be a bit harder: you would have trouble giving formal definitions of concepts, or explaining complicated arguments, etc. Logic is thus a very useful tool in this situation. On the other hand, when studying Mathematical Logic, you'll discover that mathematics and logic are intrinsically related - in that sense, you'll study logic "for its own sake".
              – Demosthene
              Mar 9 '15 at 7:54


















            • Just to make sure Demosthene, in the first paragraph, are you saying "Logic in Philosophy" is used a tool, while "Mathematical Logic" is studied for its own sake, or the other way around?
              – TSJ
              Mar 9 '15 at 4:50






            • 1




              @TSJ Essentially, yes. The idea is that you could study Philosophy without taking a logic class, but things would be a bit harder: you would have trouble giving formal definitions of concepts, or explaining complicated arguments, etc. Logic is thus a very useful tool in this situation. On the other hand, when studying Mathematical Logic, you'll discover that mathematics and logic are intrinsically related - in that sense, you'll study logic "for its own sake".
              – Demosthene
              Mar 9 '15 at 7:54
















            Just to make sure Demosthene, in the first paragraph, are you saying "Logic in Philosophy" is used a tool, while "Mathematical Logic" is studied for its own sake, or the other way around?
            – TSJ
            Mar 9 '15 at 4:50




            Just to make sure Demosthene, in the first paragraph, are you saying "Logic in Philosophy" is used a tool, while "Mathematical Logic" is studied for its own sake, or the other way around?
            – TSJ
            Mar 9 '15 at 4:50




            1




            1




            @TSJ Essentially, yes. The idea is that you could study Philosophy without taking a logic class, but things would be a bit harder: you would have trouble giving formal definitions of concepts, or explaining complicated arguments, etc. Logic is thus a very useful tool in this situation. On the other hand, when studying Mathematical Logic, you'll discover that mathematics and logic are intrinsically related - in that sense, you'll study logic "for its own sake".
            – Demosthene
            Mar 9 '15 at 7:54




            @TSJ Essentially, yes. The idea is that you could study Philosophy without taking a logic class, but things would be a bit harder: you would have trouble giving formal definitions of concepts, or explaining complicated arguments, etc. Logic is thus a very useful tool in this situation. On the other hand, when studying Mathematical Logic, you'll discover that mathematics and logic are intrinsically related - in that sense, you'll study logic "for its own sake".
            – Demosthene
            Mar 9 '15 at 7:54











            2














            i will attempt an answer in point-by-point kind of way, hope it is useful




            • Mathematical logic is symbolic and formal, Philosophy logic is more informal, more natural language oriented

            • As a result not all the forms of logic in Philosophy can be formaliserd mathematicaly, and vice-versa mathematics can formalise other notions of logic not used in philosophy (e.g toy models etc.)

            • There is an interesting topic in the foundations of mathematics (or mathematical philosophy) which exactly tries to study the connection (or difference) between the philosophical logic and mathematical logic and whether logic is the foundation of mathematics or vice-versa (many schools here with sometimes major differences, i.e formalism, intuitionism, mathematical platonism, mathematical realism, philosophy of probability and inference, etc)


            update



            To address the comments by @Michaelangelo here are some examples, with references, of logic(s) in philosophy different from analytical logic(s):



            Dialectical Logic(s) vs Analytical Logic(s)




            1. Pre-Logic, Formal Logic, Dialectical Logic, marxists.org



            [..]Contrary to formal logic, the law of dialectical logic is that
            everything is mediated therefore everything is itself and at the same
            time not itself. "A is non-A." A is negated.





            1. Formal Logic and Dialectics, marxists.org



            [..]Ilyenkov explains in his essay on Hegel, that Hegel's revolution in
            logic was effected by widening the scope of logic and the field of
            observation upon which the validity of logic could be tested, from
            logic manifested in the articulation of propositions to the
            manifestation of logic in all aspects of human practice.





            1. Dialectics and Logic



            [..]Dialectics and formal logic are sometimes posed as two contrasting forms of reasoning. In this contrast, formal logic is appropriate for
            reasoning about static properties of separate objects involving no
            interaction. To deal with change and interaction it is necessary to
            use the dialectic approach.





            1. Dialectical logic, wikipedia



            [..]Rather than the abstract formalism of traditional logic, dialectical
            logic was meant to be a materialistic examination of concrete forms:
            The logic of motion and change. A logic that is a statement about the
            objective material world.




            Intuitionism vs Formalism



            While being a school of mathematical philosophy, Intuitionism is not analytic, nor its logic.




            1. LEJ Brouwer, Lectures on Intuitionism, marxists.org



            FIRST ACT OF INTUITIONISM



            Completely separating mathematics from mathematical language and hence
            from the phenomena of language described by theoretical logic,
            recognising that intuitionistic mathematics is an essentially
            languageless activity of the mind having its origin in the perception
            of a move of time. This perception of a move of time may be described
            as the falling apart of a life moment into two distinct things, one of
            which gives way to the other, but is retained by memory. If the twoity
            thus born is divested of all quality, it passes into the empty form of
            the common substratum of all twoities. And it is this common
            substratum, this empty form, which is the basic intuition of
            mathematics.




            Informal Logic(s) vs Formal Logic(s)



            Formal Logic(s) do not make full use of natural language constructs like subtleties, ambiguities and shades of meaning.




            1. Informal Logic and the Dialectical Approach to Argument



            INFORMAL LOGIC: ORIGINAL CONCEPTIONS



            In reflecting on the origins of informal logic, Johnson and Blair
            (2002, pp. 340-352; cf. 1980, p. 5) describe it as arising in the
            context of three stream s of criticism to the existing academic logic
            program. First the pedagogical cr itique challenged that the tools of
            logic should be applicable to ever yday reasoning and argument of the
            sorts used in political, social and practical issues. Second the
            internal critique challenged the adequacy of existing tools of logic
            in evaluating everyday argument. Specifically rejected was the
            logical idea of soundness as either a necessary or a sufficient
            criterion for the goodness of arguments, as well as a formalistic
            understandi ng of validity. Finally, the empirical critique challenged
            the ideas that formal deductive logic can provide a theory of good
            reasoning, and that the abil ity to reason well is improved by a
            knowledge of formal deduction. As well, Johnson and Blair (2002, p.
            355) associate the genesis of informal logic with a renewed interest
            in the informal fallacies which were also inadequately treated in
            traditional logic programs of the time.




            While there are philosophical currents that make full use of such features and usualy also have a "poetic" flavor (poetry in philosophy or philosophy in poetry). As such make extended use of poetic tools involving natural language meaning and semantics in complex ways not formalised in formal logic (lets say informal logic).



            Works by great philosophers of the past and present who were also poets (or used such an approach to philosophy) serves most appropriate, like Plato, Hegel, Heraclitus, Borges and so on.






            share|cite|improve this answer























            • The phrase "not all the forms of logic in Philosophy can be formaliserd mathematicaly, and vice-versa mathematics can formalise other notions of logic not used in philosophy" really needs a citation and/or example demonstrating this.
              – Michaelangel007
              Oct 14 '15 at 5:53










            • @Michaelangelo, well ok i would agree, although if one reads some philosophical texts (not dealing with analytic philosophy, e.g dialectics) will encounter this, and vice-versa for mathematical texts. Natural language use in philosophy is another example.
              – Nikos M.
              Oct 14 '15 at 15:31










            • @Michaelangelo, also note that there are philosophical currents which have a "poetic" flavor, meaning they make full use of natural language in their formulation with all the ambiguities, subtleties and shades of meaning..
              – Nikos M.
              Oct 14 '15 at 15:42












            • Pushing the burden of proof onto the reader is not proof. The answer should be expanded to include valid examples (vis a vis both ways), otherwise this looks like yet-another-unsubstantiated claim. Citing a specific book/page# for references would allow the reader to follow this up for those who didn't major in philosophy and mathematics.
              – Michaelangel007
              Oct 15 '15 at 15:52












            • @Michaelangelo there is no proof burden on the reader. i would say self-explanatory, for example toy logic modles are not used in philosophy and full natural language constructs are not used in mathematical logic. This is what is stated. But in any case some examples would be nice. yet i dont see how this is contradicted or unsubstantiated (i suggested the example of dialectical logic e.g A = notA, which is not formalised in analytical logic in its full extend)
              – Nikos M.
              Oct 15 '15 at 16:22
















            2














            i will attempt an answer in point-by-point kind of way, hope it is useful




            • Mathematical logic is symbolic and formal, Philosophy logic is more informal, more natural language oriented

            • As a result not all the forms of logic in Philosophy can be formaliserd mathematicaly, and vice-versa mathematics can formalise other notions of logic not used in philosophy (e.g toy models etc.)

            • There is an interesting topic in the foundations of mathematics (or mathematical philosophy) which exactly tries to study the connection (or difference) between the philosophical logic and mathematical logic and whether logic is the foundation of mathematics or vice-versa (many schools here with sometimes major differences, i.e formalism, intuitionism, mathematical platonism, mathematical realism, philosophy of probability and inference, etc)


            update



            To address the comments by @Michaelangelo here are some examples, with references, of logic(s) in philosophy different from analytical logic(s):



            Dialectical Logic(s) vs Analytical Logic(s)




            1. Pre-Logic, Formal Logic, Dialectical Logic, marxists.org



            [..]Contrary to formal logic, the law of dialectical logic is that
            everything is mediated therefore everything is itself and at the same
            time not itself. "A is non-A." A is negated.





            1. Formal Logic and Dialectics, marxists.org



            [..]Ilyenkov explains in his essay on Hegel, that Hegel's revolution in
            logic was effected by widening the scope of logic and the field of
            observation upon which the validity of logic could be tested, from
            logic manifested in the articulation of propositions to the
            manifestation of logic in all aspects of human practice.





            1. Dialectics and Logic



            [..]Dialectics and formal logic are sometimes posed as two contrasting forms of reasoning. In this contrast, formal logic is appropriate for
            reasoning about static properties of separate objects involving no
            interaction. To deal with change and interaction it is necessary to
            use the dialectic approach.





            1. Dialectical logic, wikipedia



            [..]Rather than the abstract formalism of traditional logic, dialectical
            logic was meant to be a materialistic examination of concrete forms:
            The logic of motion and change. A logic that is a statement about the
            objective material world.




            Intuitionism vs Formalism



            While being a school of mathematical philosophy, Intuitionism is not analytic, nor its logic.




            1. LEJ Brouwer, Lectures on Intuitionism, marxists.org



            FIRST ACT OF INTUITIONISM



            Completely separating mathematics from mathematical language and hence
            from the phenomena of language described by theoretical logic,
            recognising that intuitionistic mathematics is an essentially
            languageless activity of the mind having its origin in the perception
            of a move of time. This perception of a move of time may be described
            as the falling apart of a life moment into two distinct things, one of
            which gives way to the other, but is retained by memory. If the twoity
            thus born is divested of all quality, it passes into the empty form of
            the common substratum of all twoities. And it is this common
            substratum, this empty form, which is the basic intuition of
            mathematics.




            Informal Logic(s) vs Formal Logic(s)



            Formal Logic(s) do not make full use of natural language constructs like subtleties, ambiguities and shades of meaning.




            1. Informal Logic and the Dialectical Approach to Argument



            INFORMAL LOGIC: ORIGINAL CONCEPTIONS



            In reflecting on the origins of informal logic, Johnson and Blair
            (2002, pp. 340-352; cf. 1980, p. 5) describe it as arising in the
            context of three stream s of criticism to the existing academic logic
            program. First the pedagogical cr itique challenged that the tools of
            logic should be applicable to ever yday reasoning and argument of the
            sorts used in political, social and practical issues. Second the
            internal critique challenged the adequacy of existing tools of logic
            in evaluating everyday argument. Specifically rejected was the
            logical idea of soundness as either a necessary or a sufficient
            criterion for the goodness of arguments, as well as a formalistic
            understandi ng of validity. Finally, the empirical critique challenged
            the ideas that formal deductive logic can provide a theory of good
            reasoning, and that the abil ity to reason well is improved by a
            knowledge of formal deduction. As well, Johnson and Blair (2002, p.
            355) associate the genesis of informal logic with a renewed interest
            in the informal fallacies which were also inadequately treated in
            traditional logic programs of the time.




            While there are philosophical currents that make full use of such features and usualy also have a "poetic" flavor (poetry in philosophy or philosophy in poetry). As such make extended use of poetic tools involving natural language meaning and semantics in complex ways not formalised in formal logic (lets say informal logic).



            Works by great philosophers of the past and present who were also poets (or used such an approach to philosophy) serves most appropriate, like Plato, Hegel, Heraclitus, Borges and so on.






            share|cite|improve this answer























            • The phrase "not all the forms of logic in Philosophy can be formaliserd mathematicaly, and vice-versa mathematics can formalise other notions of logic not used in philosophy" really needs a citation and/or example demonstrating this.
              – Michaelangel007
              Oct 14 '15 at 5:53










            • @Michaelangelo, well ok i would agree, although if one reads some philosophical texts (not dealing with analytic philosophy, e.g dialectics) will encounter this, and vice-versa for mathematical texts. Natural language use in philosophy is another example.
              – Nikos M.
              Oct 14 '15 at 15:31










            • @Michaelangelo, also note that there are philosophical currents which have a "poetic" flavor, meaning they make full use of natural language in their formulation with all the ambiguities, subtleties and shades of meaning..
              – Nikos M.
              Oct 14 '15 at 15:42












            • Pushing the burden of proof onto the reader is not proof. The answer should be expanded to include valid examples (vis a vis both ways), otherwise this looks like yet-another-unsubstantiated claim. Citing a specific book/page# for references would allow the reader to follow this up for those who didn't major in philosophy and mathematics.
              – Michaelangel007
              Oct 15 '15 at 15:52












            • @Michaelangelo there is no proof burden on the reader. i would say self-explanatory, for example toy logic modles are not used in philosophy and full natural language constructs are not used in mathematical logic. This is what is stated. But in any case some examples would be nice. yet i dont see how this is contradicted or unsubstantiated (i suggested the example of dialectical logic e.g A = notA, which is not formalised in analytical logic in its full extend)
              – Nikos M.
              Oct 15 '15 at 16:22














            2












            2








            2






            i will attempt an answer in point-by-point kind of way, hope it is useful




            • Mathematical logic is symbolic and formal, Philosophy logic is more informal, more natural language oriented

            • As a result not all the forms of logic in Philosophy can be formaliserd mathematicaly, and vice-versa mathematics can formalise other notions of logic not used in philosophy (e.g toy models etc.)

            • There is an interesting topic in the foundations of mathematics (or mathematical philosophy) which exactly tries to study the connection (or difference) between the philosophical logic and mathematical logic and whether logic is the foundation of mathematics or vice-versa (many schools here with sometimes major differences, i.e formalism, intuitionism, mathematical platonism, mathematical realism, philosophy of probability and inference, etc)


            update



            To address the comments by @Michaelangelo here are some examples, with references, of logic(s) in philosophy different from analytical logic(s):



            Dialectical Logic(s) vs Analytical Logic(s)




            1. Pre-Logic, Formal Logic, Dialectical Logic, marxists.org



            [..]Contrary to formal logic, the law of dialectical logic is that
            everything is mediated therefore everything is itself and at the same
            time not itself. "A is non-A." A is negated.





            1. Formal Logic and Dialectics, marxists.org



            [..]Ilyenkov explains in his essay on Hegel, that Hegel's revolution in
            logic was effected by widening the scope of logic and the field of
            observation upon which the validity of logic could be tested, from
            logic manifested in the articulation of propositions to the
            manifestation of logic in all aspects of human practice.





            1. Dialectics and Logic



            [..]Dialectics and formal logic are sometimes posed as two contrasting forms of reasoning. In this contrast, formal logic is appropriate for
            reasoning about static properties of separate objects involving no
            interaction. To deal with change and interaction it is necessary to
            use the dialectic approach.





            1. Dialectical logic, wikipedia



            [..]Rather than the abstract formalism of traditional logic, dialectical
            logic was meant to be a materialistic examination of concrete forms:
            The logic of motion and change. A logic that is a statement about the
            objective material world.




            Intuitionism vs Formalism



            While being a school of mathematical philosophy, Intuitionism is not analytic, nor its logic.




            1. LEJ Brouwer, Lectures on Intuitionism, marxists.org



            FIRST ACT OF INTUITIONISM



            Completely separating mathematics from mathematical language and hence
            from the phenomena of language described by theoretical logic,
            recognising that intuitionistic mathematics is an essentially
            languageless activity of the mind having its origin in the perception
            of a move of time. This perception of a move of time may be described
            as the falling apart of a life moment into two distinct things, one of
            which gives way to the other, but is retained by memory. If the twoity
            thus born is divested of all quality, it passes into the empty form of
            the common substratum of all twoities. And it is this common
            substratum, this empty form, which is the basic intuition of
            mathematics.




            Informal Logic(s) vs Formal Logic(s)



            Formal Logic(s) do not make full use of natural language constructs like subtleties, ambiguities and shades of meaning.




            1. Informal Logic and the Dialectical Approach to Argument



            INFORMAL LOGIC: ORIGINAL CONCEPTIONS



            In reflecting on the origins of informal logic, Johnson and Blair
            (2002, pp. 340-352; cf. 1980, p. 5) describe it as arising in the
            context of three stream s of criticism to the existing academic logic
            program. First the pedagogical cr itique challenged that the tools of
            logic should be applicable to ever yday reasoning and argument of the
            sorts used in political, social and practical issues. Second the
            internal critique challenged the adequacy of existing tools of logic
            in evaluating everyday argument. Specifically rejected was the
            logical idea of soundness as either a necessary or a sufficient
            criterion for the goodness of arguments, as well as a formalistic
            understandi ng of validity. Finally, the empirical critique challenged
            the ideas that formal deductive logic can provide a theory of good
            reasoning, and that the abil ity to reason well is improved by a
            knowledge of formal deduction. As well, Johnson and Blair (2002, p.
            355) associate the genesis of informal logic with a renewed interest
            in the informal fallacies which were also inadequately treated in
            traditional logic programs of the time.




            While there are philosophical currents that make full use of such features and usualy also have a "poetic" flavor (poetry in philosophy or philosophy in poetry). As such make extended use of poetic tools involving natural language meaning and semantics in complex ways not formalised in formal logic (lets say informal logic).



            Works by great philosophers of the past and present who were also poets (or used such an approach to philosophy) serves most appropriate, like Plato, Hegel, Heraclitus, Borges and so on.






            share|cite|improve this answer














            i will attempt an answer in point-by-point kind of way, hope it is useful




            • Mathematical logic is symbolic and formal, Philosophy logic is more informal, more natural language oriented

            • As a result not all the forms of logic in Philosophy can be formaliserd mathematicaly, and vice-versa mathematics can formalise other notions of logic not used in philosophy (e.g toy models etc.)

            • There is an interesting topic in the foundations of mathematics (or mathematical philosophy) which exactly tries to study the connection (or difference) between the philosophical logic and mathematical logic and whether logic is the foundation of mathematics or vice-versa (many schools here with sometimes major differences, i.e formalism, intuitionism, mathematical platonism, mathematical realism, philosophy of probability and inference, etc)


            update



            To address the comments by @Michaelangelo here are some examples, with references, of logic(s) in philosophy different from analytical logic(s):



            Dialectical Logic(s) vs Analytical Logic(s)




            1. Pre-Logic, Formal Logic, Dialectical Logic, marxists.org



            [..]Contrary to formal logic, the law of dialectical logic is that
            everything is mediated therefore everything is itself and at the same
            time not itself. "A is non-A." A is negated.





            1. Formal Logic and Dialectics, marxists.org



            [..]Ilyenkov explains in his essay on Hegel, that Hegel's revolution in
            logic was effected by widening the scope of logic and the field of
            observation upon which the validity of logic could be tested, from
            logic manifested in the articulation of propositions to the
            manifestation of logic in all aspects of human practice.





            1. Dialectics and Logic



            [..]Dialectics and formal logic are sometimes posed as two contrasting forms of reasoning. In this contrast, formal logic is appropriate for
            reasoning about static properties of separate objects involving no
            interaction. To deal with change and interaction it is necessary to
            use the dialectic approach.





            1. Dialectical logic, wikipedia



            [..]Rather than the abstract formalism of traditional logic, dialectical
            logic was meant to be a materialistic examination of concrete forms:
            The logic of motion and change. A logic that is a statement about the
            objective material world.




            Intuitionism vs Formalism



            While being a school of mathematical philosophy, Intuitionism is not analytic, nor its logic.




            1. LEJ Brouwer, Lectures on Intuitionism, marxists.org



            FIRST ACT OF INTUITIONISM



            Completely separating mathematics from mathematical language and hence
            from the phenomena of language described by theoretical logic,
            recognising that intuitionistic mathematics is an essentially
            languageless activity of the mind having its origin in the perception
            of a move of time. This perception of a move of time may be described
            as the falling apart of a life moment into two distinct things, one of
            which gives way to the other, but is retained by memory. If the twoity
            thus born is divested of all quality, it passes into the empty form of
            the common substratum of all twoities. And it is this common
            substratum, this empty form, which is the basic intuition of
            mathematics.




            Informal Logic(s) vs Formal Logic(s)



            Formal Logic(s) do not make full use of natural language constructs like subtleties, ambiguities and shades of meaning.




            1. Informal Logic and the Dialectical Approach to Argument



            INFORMAL LOGIC: ORIGINAL CONCEPTIONS



            In reflecting on the origins of informal logic, Johnson and Blair
            (2002, pp. 340-352; cf. 1980, p. 5) describe it as arising in the
            context of three stream s of criticism to the existing academic logic
            program. First the pedagogical cr itique challenged that the tools of
            logic should be applicable to ever yday reasoning and argument of the
            sorts used in political, social and practical issues. Second the
            internal critique challenged the adequacy of existing tools of logic
            in evaluating everyday argument. Specifically rejected was the
            logical idea of soundness as either a necessary or a sufficient
            criterion for the goodness of arguments, as well as a formalistic
            understandi ng of validity. Finally, the empirical critique challenged
            the ideas that formal deductive logic can provide a theory of good
            reasoning, and that the abil ity to reason well is improved by a
            knowledge of formal deduction. As well, Johnson and Blair (2002, p.
            355) associate the genesis of informal logic with a renewed interest
            in the informal fallacies which were also inadequately treated in
            traditional logic programs of the time.




            While there are philosophical currents that make full use of such features and usualy also have a "poetic" flavor (poetry in philosophy or philosophy in poetry). As such make extended use of poetic tools involving natural language meaning and semantics in complex ways not formalised in formal logic (lets say informal logic).



            Works by great philosophers of the past and present who were also poets (or used such an approach to philosophy) serves most appropriate, like Plato, Hegel, Heraclitus, Borges and so on.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited Oct 15 '15 at 17:43

























            answered Mar 8 '15 at 2:51









            Nikos M.

            1,528719




            1,528719












            • The phrase "not all the forms of logic in Philosophy can be formaliserd mathematicaly, and vice-versa mathematics can formalise other notions of logic not used in philosophy" really needs a citation and/or example demonstrating this.
              – Michaelangel007
              Oct 14 '15 at 5:53










            • @Michaelangelo, well ok i would agree, although if one reads some philosophical texts (not dealing with analytic philosophy, e.g dialectics) will encounter this, and vice-versa for mathematical texts. Natural language use in philosophy is another example.
              – Nikos M.
              Oct 14 '15 at 15:31










            • @Michaelangelo, also note that there are philosophical currents which have a "poetic" flavor, meaning they make full use of natural language in their formulation with all the ambiguities, subtleties and shades of meaning..
              – Nikos M.
              Oct 14 '15 at 15:42












            • Pushing the burden of proof onto the reader is not proof. The answer should be expanded to include valid examples (vis a vis both ways), otherwise this looks like yet-another-unsubstantiated claim. Citing a specific book/page# for references would allow the reader to follow this up for those who didn't major in philosophy and mathematics.
              – Michaelangel007
              Oct 15 '15 at 15:52












            • @Michaelangelo there is no proof burden on the reader. i would say self-explanatory, for example toy logic modles are not used in philosophy and full natural language constructs are not used in mathematical logic. This is what is stated. But in any case some examples would be nice. yet i dont see how this is contradicted or unsubstantiated (i suggested the example of dialectical logic e.g A = notA, which is not formalised in analytical logic in its full extend)
              – Nikos M.
              Oct 15 '15 at 16:22


















            • The phrase "not all the forms of logic in Philosophy can be formaliserd mathematicaly, and vice-versa mathematics can formalise other notions of logic not used in philosophy" really needs a citation and/or example demonstrating this.
              – Michaelangel007
              Oct 14 '15 at 5:53










            • @Michaelangelo, well ok i would agree, although if one reads some philosophical texts (not dealing with analytic philosophy, e.g dialectics) will encounter this, and vice-versa for mathematical texts. Natural language use in philosophy is another example.
              – Nikos M.
              Oct 14 '15 at 15:31










            • @Michaelangelo, also note that there are philosophical currents which have a "poetic" flavor, meaning they make full use of natural language in their formulation with all the ambiguities, subtleties and shades of meaning..
              – Nikos M.
              Oct 14 '15 at 15:42












            • Pushing the burden of proof onto the reader is not proof. The answer should be expanded to include valid examples (vis a vis both ways), otherwise this looks like yet-another-unsubstantiated claim. Citing a specific book/page# for references would allow the reader to follow this up for those who didn't major in philosophy and mathematics.
              – Michaelangel007
              Oct 15 '15 at 15:52












            • @Michaelangelo there is no proof burden on the reader. i would say self-explanatory, for example toy logic modles are not used in philosophy and full natural language constructs are not used in mathematical logic. This is what is stated. But in any case some examples would be nice. yet i dont see how this is contradicted or unsubstantiated (i suggested the example of dialectical logic e.g A = notA, which is not formalised in analytical logic in its full extend)
              – Nikos M.
              Oct 15 '15 at 16:22
















            The phrase "not all the forms of logic in Philosophy can be formaliserd mathematicaly, and vice-versa mathematics can formalise other notions of logic not used in philosophy" really needs a citation and/or example demonstrating this.
            – Michaelangel007
            Oct 14 '15 at 5:53




            The phrase "not all the forms of logic in Philosophy can be formaliserd mathematicaly, and vice-versa mathematics can formalise other notions of logic not used in philosophy" really needs a citation and/or example demonstrating this.
            – Michaelangel007
            Oct 14 '15 at 5:53












            @Michaelangelo, well ok i would agree, although if one reads some philosophical texts (not dealing with analytic philosophy, e.g dialectics) will encounter this, and vice-versa for mathematical texts. Natural language use in philosophy is another example.
            – Nikos M.
            Oct 14 '15 at 15:31




            @Michaelangelo, well ok i would agree, although if one reads some philosophical texts (not dealing with analytic philosophy, e.g dialectics) will encounter this, and vice-versa for mathematical texts. Natural language use in philosophy is another example.
            – Nikos M.
            Oct 14 '15 at 15:31












            @Michaelangelo, also note that there are philosophical currents which have a "poetic" flavor, meaning they make full use of natural language in their formulation with all the ambiguities, subtleties and shades of meaning..
            – Nikos M.
            Oct 14 '15 at 15:42






            @Michaelangelo, also note that there are philosophical currents which have a "poetic" flavor, meaning they make full use of natural language in their formulation with all the ambiguities, subtleties and shades of meaning..
            – Nikos M.
            Oct 14 '15 at 15:42














            Pushing the burden of proof onto the reader is not proof. The answer should be expanded to include valid examples (vis a vis both ways), otherwise this looks like yet-another-unsubstantiated claim. Citing a specific book/page# for references would allow the reader to follow this up for those who didn't major in philosophy and mathematics.
            – Michaelangel007
            Oct 15 '15 at 15:52






            Pushing the burden of proof onto the reader is not proof. The answer should be expanded to include valid examples (vis a vis both ways), otherwise this looks like yet-another-unsubstantiated claim. Citing a specific book/page# for references would allow the reader to follow this up for those who didn't major in philosophy and mathematics.
            – Michaelangel007
            Oct 15 '15 at 15:52














            @Michaelangelo there is no proof burden on the reader. i would say self-explanatory, for example toy logic modles are not used in philosophy and full natural language constructs are not used in mathematical logic. This is what is stated. But in any case some examples would be nice. yet i dont see how this is contradicted or unsubstantiated (i suggested the example of dialectical logic e.g A = notA, which is not formalised in analytical logic in its full extend)
            – Nikos M.
            Oct 15 '15 at 16:22




            @Michaelangelo there is no proof burden on the reader. i would say self-explanatory, for example toy logic modles are not used in philosophy and full natural language constructs are not used in mathematical logic. This is what is stated. But in any case some examples would be nice. yet i dont see how this is contradicted or unsubstantiated (i suggested the example of dialectical logic e.g A = notA, which is not formalised in analytical logic in its full extend)
            – Nikos M.
            Oct 15 '15 at 16:22











            -2














            As a mathematician (not a philosopher), I think that the biggest difference between philosophical logic and mathematical logic is that in mathematics we assume the existence of the most fundamental objects that we're trying to study.



            The most common mathematical assumption is the existence of the integers. They have bizarre properties. For example, you can always add one to an integer to get a larger integer, i.e, there's an infinite number of them. Estimates of the number of elementary particles in the visible universe are in the $10^{80}$ to $10^{97}$ range [1], so there might not be $10^{100}$ particles in the universe, yet $10^{100}$ is a well defined integer. $10^{10^{100}}$ is an integer with more digits than there are particles in the universe, yet it "exists", and what's more, I can construct an integer that's larger than it: $10^{10^{100}} + 1$. I can even prove that there are infinitely more integers that are larger than $10^{10^{100}}$.



            I went to college to learn these proofs. Aristophanes would approve. [2]



            Of course, integers do not really exist as physical objects. If we accept the mathematician's claim that they do "exist", then we could do Anselm [3] one better:




            1. Assume the existence of God.

            2. Therefore, God exists.


            I call it the "Mathematician's Proof of the Existence of God".



            I know of no field of philosophy that so cavalierly assumes things into existence, although all philosophical arguments seem to be based on some claims assumed to be true. Once these assumptions are clearly stated, then the same process of logical deduction (or induction) can be applied.



            The great irony here is that by assuming the existence of physically implausible objects like integers and complex numbers, we can construct theories that explain the behavior of the actual physical universe to previously unimaginable precision.






            share|cite|improve this answer



















            • 1




              I don't think this is really accurate, since in mathematics we don't forget our existential assumptions: e.g. when you get down to it, statements like "there is no largest prime" are concluded within some formal system. There's no requirement that we make any existential assumptions beyond those required for basic reasoning - we can always phrase results as "under such-and-such assumptions, ..."
              – Noah Schweber
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:27








            • 1




              In fact, I'd say the situation is precisely the opposite. Mathematics broadly studies the behavior of consistent (so far as we know) objects. In this context it's often useful to work under existential assumptions, but they can always be stripped away, and one of the takeaways from the utility of "unreal" mathematical objects in the "real" world should be that existence is overrated - the conditional results we get under strong existential assumptions often wind up being useful independently of the "truth" of those existential assumptions.
              – Noah Schweber
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:32






            • 1




              Actually I would consider the stand-out behavior of mathematical logic to be how little existential commitment it actually needs to make. And certainly I disagree with your Anselmian riff: we don't, for example, freely conclude the existence of a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture, or even of a non-well-orderable set (that one's more interesting since we can prove that the failure of the axiom of choice is equiconsistent with the axiom of choice, relative to ZF, so - unlike Goldbach so far as we know - it provably won't "cost" us anything). At best, some things are assumed to exist.
              – Noah Schweber
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:35










            • @Noah Schweber: It is remarkable how much can be done with so little existential commitment, but I contend that the existential commitment is larger than is commonly understood. For example, I've come to see Gödel's incompleteness theorems mostly as consequences of the bizarre properties of these things we call "integers". Fundamental to Gödel's argument is the ability to encode a finite sequence of integers into a single integer. No matter how large the numbers are in our sequence, we can always find a larger number that encodes them - and an even larger number that encodes it! Weird...
              – Brent Baccala
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:56










            • These things we call "integers" are not the things that people use to count apples.
              – Brent Baccala
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:59
















            -2














            As a mathematician (not a philosopher), I think that the biggest difference between philosophical logic and mathematical logic is that in mathematics we assume the existence of the most fundamental objects that we're trying to study.



            The most common mathematical assumption is the existence of the integers. They have bizarre properties. For example, you can always add one to an integer to get a larger integer, i.e, there's an infinite number of them. Estimates of the number of elementary particles in the visible universe are in the $10^{80}$ to $10^{97}$ range [1], so there might not be $10^{100}$ particles in the universe, yet $10^{100}$ is a well defined integer. $10^{10^{100}}$ is an integer with more digits than there are particles in the universe, yet it "exists", and what's more, I can construct an integer that's larger than it: $10^{10^{100}} + 1$. I can even prove that there are infinitely more integers that are larger than $10^{10^{100}}$.



            I went to college to learn these proofs. Aristophanes would approve. [2]



            Of course, integers do not really exist as physical objects. If we accept the mathematician's claim that they do "exist", then we could do Anselm [3] one better:




            1. Assume the existence of God.

            2. Therefore, God exists.


            I call it the "Mathematician's Proof of the Existence of God".



            I know of no field of philosophy that so cavalierly assumes things into existence, although all philosophical arguments seem to be based on some claims assumed to be true. Once these assumptions are clearly stated, then the same process of logical deduction (or induction) can be applied.



            The great irony here is that by assuming the existence of physically implausible objects like integers and complex numbers, we can construct theories that explain the behavior of the actual physical universe to previously unimaginable precision.






            share|cite|improve this answer



















            • 1




              I don't think this is really accurate, since in mathematics we don't forget our existential assumptions: e.g. when you get down to it, statements like "there is no largest prime" are concluded within some formal system. There's no requirement that we make any existential assumptions beyond those required for basic reasoning - we can always phrase results as "under such-and-such assumptions, ..."
              – Noah Schweber
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:27








            • 1




              In fact, I'd say the situation is precisely the opposite. Mathematics broadly studies the behavior of consistent (so far as we know) objects. In this context it's often useful to work under existential assumptions, but they can always be stripped away, and one of the takeaways from the utility of "unreal" mathematical objects in the "real" world should be that existence is overrated - the conditional results we get under strong existential assumptions often wind up being useful independently of the "truth" of those existential assumptions.
              – Noah Schweber
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:32






            • 1




              Actually I would consider the stand-out behavior of mathematical logic to be how little existential commitment it actually needs to make. And certainly I disagree with your Anselmian riff: we don't, for example, freely conclude the existence of a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture, or even of a non-well-orderable set (that one's more interesting since we can prove that the failure of the axiom of choice is equiconsistent with the axiom of choice, relative to ZF, so - unlike Goldbach so far as we know - it provably won't "cost" us anything). At best, some things are assumed to exist.
              – Noah Schweber
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:35










            • @Noah Schweber: It is remarkable how much can be done with so little existential commitment, but I contend that the existential commitment is larger than is commonly understood. For example, I've come to see Gödel's incompleteness theorems mostly as consequences of the bizarre properties of these things we call "integers". Fundamental to Gödel's argument is the ability to encode a finite sequence of integers into a single integer. No matter how large the numbers are in our sequence, we can always find a larger number that encodes them - and an even larger number that encodes it! Weird...
              – Brent Baccala
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:56










            • These things we call "integers" are not the things that people use to count apples.
              – Brent Baccala
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:59














            -2












            -2








            -2






            As a mathematician (not a philosopher), I think that the biggest difference between philosophical logic and mathematical logic is that in mathematics we assume the existence of the most fundamental objects that we're trying to study.



            The most common mathematical assumption is the existence of the integers. They have bizarre properties. For example, you can always add one to an integer to get a larger integer, i.e, there's an infinite number of them. Estimates of the number of elementary particles in the visible universe are in the $10^{80}$ to $10^{97}$ range [1], so there might not be $10^{100}$ particles in the universe, yet $10^{100}$ is a well defined integer. $10^{10^{100}}$ is an integer with more digits than there are particles in the universe, yet it "exists", and what's more, I can construct an integer that's larger than it: $10^{10^{100}} + 1$. I can even prove that there are infinitely more integers that are larger than $10^{10^{100}}$.



            I went to college to learn these proofs. Aristophanes would approve. [2]



            Of course, integers do not really exist as physical objects. If we accept the mathematician's claim that they do "exist", then we could do Anselm [3] one better:




            1. Assume the existence of God.

            2. Therefore, God exists.


            I call it the "Mathematician's Proof of the Existence of God".



            I know of no field of philosophy that so cavalierly assumes things into existence, although all philosophical arguments seem to be based on some claims assumed to be true. Once these assumptions are clearly stated, then the same process of logical deduction (or induction) can be applied.



            The great irony here is that by assuming the existence of physically implausible objects like integers and complex numbers, we can construct theories that explain the behavior of the actual physical universe to previously unimaginable precision.






            share|cite|improve this answer














            As a mathematician (not a philosopher), I think that the biggest difference between philosophical logic and mathematical logic is that in mathematics we assume the existence of the most fundamental objects that we're trying to study.



            The most common mathematical assumption is the existence of the integers. They have bizarre properties. For example, you can always add one to an integer to get a larger integer, i.e, there's an infinite number of them. Estimates of the number of elementary particles in the visible universe are in the $10^{80}$ to $10^{97}$ range [1], so there might not be $10^{100}$ particles in the universe, yet $10^{100}$ is a well defined integer. $10^{10^{100}}$ is an integer with more digits than there are particles in the universe, yet it "exists", and what's more, I can construct an integer that's larger than it: $10^{10^{100}} + 1$. I can even prove that there are infinitely more integers that are larger than $10^{10^{100}}$.



            I went to college to learn these proofs. Aristophanes would approve. [2]



            Of course, integers do not really exist as physical objects. If we accept the mathematician's claim that they do "exist", then we could do Anselm [3] one better:




            1. Assume the existence of God.

            2. Therefore, God exists.


            I call it the "Mathematician's Proof of the Existence of God".



            I know of no field of philosophy that so cavalierly assumes things into existence, although all philosophical arguments seem to be based on some claims assumed to be true. Once these assumptions are clearly stated, then the same process of logical deduction (or induction) can be applied.



            The great irony here is that by assuming the existence of physically implausible objects like integers and complex numbers, we can construct theories that explain the behavior of the actual physical universe to previously unimaginable precision.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited Dec 27 '18 at 18:50

























            answered Dec 27 '18 at 18:39









            Brent Baccala

            296210




            296210








            • 1




              I don't think this is really accurate, since in mathematics we don't forget our existential assumptions: e.g. when you get down to it, statements like "there is no largest prime" are concluded within some formal system. There's no requirement that we make any existential assumptions beyond those required for basic reasoning - we can always phrase results as "under such-and-such assumptions, ..."
              – Noah Schweber
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:27








            • 1




              In fact, I'd say the situation is precisely the opposite. Mathematics broadly studies the behavior of consistent (so far as we know) objects. In this context it's often useful to work under existential assumptions, but they can always be stripped away, and one of the takeaways from the utility of "unreal" mathematical objects in the "real" world should be that existence is overrated - the conditional results we get under strong existential assumptions often wind up being useful independently of the "truth" of those existential assumptions.
              – Noah Schweber
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:32






            • 1




              Actually I would consider the stand-out behavior of mathematical logic to be how little existential commitment it actually needs to make. And certainly I disagree with your Anselmian riff: we don't, for example, freely conclude the existence of a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture, or even of a non-well-orderable set (that one's more interesting since we can prove that the failure of the axiom of choice is equiconsistent with the axiom of choice, relative to ZF, so - unlike Goldbach so far as we know - it provably won't "cost" us anything). At best, some things are assumed to exist.
              – Noah Schweber
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:35










            • @Noah Schweber: It is remarkable how much can be done with so little existential commitment, but I contend that the existential commitment is larger than is commonly understood. For example, I've come to see Gödel's incompleteness theorems mostly as consequences of the bizarre properties of these things we call "integers". Fundamental to Gödel's argument is the ability to encode a finite sequence of integers into a single integer. No matter how large the numbers are in our sequence, we can always find a larger number that encodes them - and an even larger number that encodes it! Weird...
              – Brent Baccala
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:56










            • These things we call "integers" are not the things that people use to count apples.
              – Brent Baccala
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:59














            • 1




              I don't think this is really accurate, since in mathematics we don't forget our existential assumptions: e.g. when you get down to it, statements like "there is no largest prime" are concluded within some formal system. There's no requirement that we make any existential assumptions beyond those required for basic reasoning - we can always phrase results as "under such-and-such assumptions, ..."
              – Noah Schweber
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:27








            • 1




              In fact, I'd say the situation is precisely the opposite. Mathematics broadly studies the behavior of consistent (so far as we know) objects. In this context it's often useful to work under existential assumptions, but they can always be stripped away, and one of the takeaways from the utility of "unreal" mathematical objects in the "real" world should be that existence is overrated - the conditional results we get under strong existential assumptions often wind up being useful independently of the "truth" of those existential assumptions.
              – Noah Schweber
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:32






            • 1




              Actually I would consider the stand-out behavior of mathematical logic to be how little existential commitment it actually needs to make. And certainly I disagree with your Anselmian riff: we don't, for example, freely conclude the existence of a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture, or even of a non-well-orderable set (that one's more interesting since we can prove that the failure of the axiom of choice is equiconsistent with the axiom of choice, relative to ZF, so - unlike Goldbach so far as we know - it provably won't "cost" us anything). At best, some things are assumed to exist.
              – Noah Schweber
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:35










            • @Noah Schweber: It is remarkable how much can be done with so little existential commitment, but I contend that the existential commitment is larger than is commonly understood. For example, I've come to see Gödel's incompleteness theorems mostly as consequences of the bizarre properties of these things we call "integers". Fundamental to Gödel's argument is the ability to encode a finite sequence of integers into a single integer. No matter how large the numbers are in our sequence, we can always find a larger number that encodes them - and an even larger number that encodes it! Weird...
              – Brent Baccala
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:56










            • These things we call "integers" are not the things that people use to count apples.
              – Brent Baccala
              Dec 27 '18 at 19:59








            1




            1




            I don't think this is really accurate, since in mathematics we don't forget our existential assumptions: e.g. when you get down to it, statements like "there is no largest prime" are concluded within some formal system. There's no requirement that we make any existential assumptions beyond those required for basic reasoning - we can always phrase results as "under such-and-such assumptions, ..."
            – Noah Schweber
            Dec 27 '18 at 19:27






            I don't think this is really accurate, since in mathematics we don't forget our existential assumptions: e.g. when you get down to it, statements like "there is no largest prime" are concluded within some formal system. There's no requirement that we make any existential assumptions beyond those required for basic reasoning - we can always phrase results as "under such-and-such assumptions, ..."
            – Noah Schweber
            Dec 27 '18 at 19:27






            1




            1




            In fact, I'd say the situation is precisely the opposite. Mathematics broadly studies the behavior of consistent (so far as we know) objects. In this context it's often useful to work under existential assumptions, but they can always be stripped away, and one of the takeaways from the utility of "unreal" mathematical objects in the "real" world should be that existence is overrated - the conditional results we get under strong existential assumptions often wind up being useful independently of the "truth" of those existential assumptions.
            – Noah Schweber
            Dec 27 '18 at 19:32




            In fact, I'd say the situation is precisely the opposite. Mathematics broadly studies the behavior of consistent (so far as we know) objects. In this context it's often useful to work under existential assumptions, but they can always be stripped away, and one of the takeaways from the utility of "unreal" mathematical objects in the "real" world should be that existence is overrated - the conditional results we get under strong existential assumptions often wind up being useful independently of the "truth" of those existential assumptions.
            – Noah Schweber
            Dec 27 '18 at 19:32




            1




            1




            Actually I would consider the stand-out behavior of mathematical logic to be how little existential commitment it actually needs to make. And certainly I disagree with your Anselmian riff: we don't, for example, freely conclude the existence of a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture, or even of a non-well-orderable set (that one's more interesting since we can prove that the failure of the axiom of choice is equiconsistent with the axiom of choice, relative to ZF, so - unlike Goldbach so far as we know - it provably won't "cost" us anything). At best, some things are assumed to exist.
            – Noah Schweber
            Dec 27 '18 at 19:35




            Actually I would consider the stand-out behavior of mathematical logic to be how little existential commitment it actually needs to make. And certainly I disagree with your Anselmian riff: we don't, for example, freely conclude the existence of a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture, or even of a non-well-orderable set (that one's more interesting since we can prove that the failure of the axiom of choice is equiconsistent with the axiom of choice, relative to ZF, so - unlike Goldbach so far as we know - it provably won't "cost" us anything). At best, some things are assumed to exist.
            – Noah Schweber
            Dec 27 '18 at 19:35












            @Noah Schweber: It is remarkable how much can be done with so little existential commitment, but I contend that the existential commitment is larger than is commonly understood. For example, I've come to see Gödel's incompleteness theorems mostly as consequences of the bizarre properties of these things we call "integers". Fundamental to Gödel's argument is the ability to encode a finite sequence of integers into a single integer. No matter how large the numbers are in our sequence, we can always find a larger number that encodes them - and an even larger number that encodes it! Weird...
            – Brent Baccala
            Dec 27 '18 at 19:56




            @Noah Schweber: It is remarkable how much can be done with so little existential commitment, but I contend that the existential commitment is larger than is commonly understood. For example, I've come to see Gödel's incompleteness theorems mostly as consequences of the bizarre properties of these things we call "integers". Fundamental to Gödel's argument is the ability to encode a finite sequence of integers into a single integer. No matter how large the numbers are in our sequence, we can always find a larger number that encodes them - and an even larger number that encodes it! Weird...
            – Brent Baccala
            Dec 27 '18 at 19:56












            These things we call "integers" are not the things that people use to count apples.
            – Brent Baccala
            Dec 27 '18 at 19:59




            These things we call "integers" are not the things that people use to count apples.
            – Brent Baccala
            Dec 27 '18 at 19:59


















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