Sylow Subgroups and Conjugation












5












$begingroup$


Suppose that $G$ is a finite group whose order is divisible by a prime $p$. Let $S$ be the set of Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$; let $H$ be an element of $S$. $H$ acts on $S$ by conjugation. The fact that is the key to the proof of the Third Sylow Theorem is that there is only one $H$-orbit of order $1$. I was wondering if we could say more about this action.




  • I first thought that maybe there are only two $H$-orbits. But this turned out to be false in general. (I saw that it was false in the dihedral group $D_{5}$.)

  • Next I checked whether all the orbits other than ${H}$ has order $H$. This is false in general, too. (This is false in $A_{5}$.)


After fiddling with some examples, I found that




all the $H$-orbits except ${H}$ seem to have the same order.




But I can neither prove or disprove this claim. So here are my questions:




  1. Is the above claim correct? If so, why?

  2. Is there any other things we can say about the $H$-orbits?


Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance!










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$

















    5












    $begingroup$


    Suppose that $G$ is a finite group whose order is divisible by a prime $p$. Let $S$ be the set of Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$; let $H$ be an element of $S$. $H$ acts on $S$ by conjugation. The fact that is the key to the proof of the Third Sylow Theorem is that there is only one $H$-orbit of order $1$. I was wondering if we could say more about this action.




    • I first thought that maybe there are only two $H$-orbits. But this turned out to be false in general. (I saw that it was false in the dihedral group $D_{5}$.)

    • Next I checked whether all the orbits other than ${H}$ has order $H$. This is false in general, too. (This is false in $A_{5}$.)


    After fiddling with some examples, I found that




    all the $H$-orbits except ${H}$ seem to have the same order.




    But I can neither prove or disprove this claim. So here are my questions:




    1. Is the above claim correct? If so, why?

    2. Is there any other things we can say about the $H$-orbits?


    Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance!










    share|cite|improve this question









    $endgroup$















      5












      5








      5


      1



      $begingroup$


      Suppose that $G$ is a finite group whose order is divisible by a prime $p$. Let $S$ be the set of Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$; let $H$ be an element of $S$. $H$ acts on $S$ by conjugation. The fact that is the key to the proof of the Third Sylow Theorem is that there is only one $H$-orbit of order $1$. I was wondering if we could say more about this action.




      • I first thought that maybe there are only two $H$-orbits. But this turned out to be false in general. (I saw that it was false in the dihedral group $D_{5}$.)

      • Next I checked whether all the orbits other than ${H}$ has order $H$. This is false in general, too. (This is false in $A_{5}$.)


      After fiddling with some examples, I found that




      all the $H$-orbits except ${H}$ seem to have the same order.




      But I can neither prove or disprove this claim. So here are my questions:




      1. Is the above claim correct? If so, why?

      2. Is there any other things we can say about the $H$-orbits?


      Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance!










      share|cite|improve this question









      $endgroup$




      Suppose that $G$ is a finite group whose order is divisible by a prime $p$. Let $S$ be the set of Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$; let $H$ be an element of $S$. $H$ acts on $S$ by conjugation. The fact that is the key to the proof of the Third Sylow Theorem is that there is only one $H$-orbit of order $1$. I was wondering if we could say more about this action.




      • I first thought that maybe there are only two $H$-orbits. But this turned out to be false in general. (I saw that it was false in the dihedral group $D_{5}$.)

      • Next I checked whether all the orbits other than ${H}$ has order $H$. This is false in general, too. (This is false in $A_{5}$.)


      After fiddling with some examples, I found that




      all the $H$-orbits except ${H}$ seem to have the same order.




      But I can neither prove or disprove this claim. So here are my questions:




      1. Is the above claim correct? If so, why?

      2. Is there any other things we can say about the $H$-orbits?


      Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance!







      abstract-algebra group-theory finite-groups sylow-theory






      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question











      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question










      asked Jan 9 at 3:29









      KenKen

      16919




      16919






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

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          4












          $begingroup$

          Let $mathcal{S}={S leq G: S in Syl_p(G)}$ be the set of Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$. Fix a $S in mathcal{S}$ and let $S$ act on $mathcal{S}$ by conjugation. Then the length of an orbit of a $T in mathcal{S}$ is clearly $|S:N_S(T)|$, the index of the normalizer of $T$ relative to $S$. The following holds true.



          Proposition Let $S,T$ be Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$, then $N_S(T)=S cap T=N_T(S)$.



          Proof Let's prove the first equality, since by symmetry the other holds to. Clearly if $x in S cap T$, then $x in N_S(T)$. So assume $x in N_S(T)$, in particular $x in S $. Then $langle x rangle T$ is a subgroup. And, it is a $p$-subgroup, since $|langle x rangle T|=frac{|langle x rangle| cdot |T|}{|langle x rangle cap T|}$ and note that $x$ is a $p$-element. But $T subseteq langle x rangle T$, but $T$ is a maximal $p$-subgroup since it is Sylow. Hence $T = langle x rangle T$, that is, $x in T$.



          So the size of each of the orbits is $|S:S cap T|$ (which equals $|T:S cap T|$). Your question boils down to what can be said about the intersections of the different Sylow $p$-subgroups. These do not have to be equal as the example of $S_3 times S_3$ and its Sylow $2$-subgroups demonstrate (see @Verret). Finally observe, since the oribit size of $S$ itself is $1$ as you remarked, the number Sylow $p$-subgroups $n_p(G) equiv 1$ mod $|S:S cap T|$, where $|S cap T|$ is chosen to be as large as possible among the $T$'s not equal to $S$. This generalizes the regular formula $n_p(G) equiv 1$ mod $p$.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$





















            7












            $begingroup$

            By computer calculation, the smallest counterexample is $S_3^2$ which has $9$ Sylow $2$-subgroups, and the action of one of them by conjugation has one fixed point, one orbit of length $4$, and two orbits of size $2$.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              Thank you for your answer! I accepted Nicky's answer but yours was equally helpful. I have one question; what software/program did you use? (I have never used computers for calculations involving groups and I am curious if there is any suggestion.)
              $endgroup$
              – Ken
              Jan 10 at 1:28






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              I used "magma", which is not free, but they have a free online calculator at magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/calc which is more than good enough for easy calculations like this. A free alternative is "GAP" gap-system.org
              $endgroup$
              – verret
              Jan 10 at 3:04






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              Just to get you started, this is a program that runs through the groups of order at most 10 and prints the order of their sylow subgroups: for n in [1..10] do for i in [1..NumberOfSmallGroups(n)] do G:=SmallGroup(n,i); for p in PrimeDivisors(Order(G)) do P:=SylowSubgroup(G,p); [n,i,p]; #P; end for; end for; end for;
              $endgroup$
              – verret
              Jan 10 at 3:07











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            $begingroup$

            Let $mathcal{S}={S leq G: S in Syl_p(G)}$ be the set of Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$. Fix a $S in mathcal{S}$ and let $S$ act on $mathcal{S}$ by conjugation. Then the length of an orbit of a $T in mathcal{S}$ is clearly $|S:N_S(T)|$, the index of the normalizer of $T$ relative to $S$. The following holds true.



            Proposition Let $S,T$ be Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$, then $N_S(T)=S cap T=N_T(S)$.



            Proof Let's prove the first equality, since by symmetry the other holds to. Clearly if $x in S cap T$, then $x in N_S(T)$. So assume $x in N_S(T)$, in particular $x in S $. Then $langle x rangle T$ is a subgroup. And, it is a $p$-subgroup, since $|langle x rangle T|=frac{|langle x rangle| cdot |T|}{|langle x rangle cap T|}$ and note that $x$ is a $p$-element. But $T subseteq langle x rangle T$, but $T$ is a maximal $p$-subgroup since it is Sylow. Hence $T = langle x rangle T$, that is, $x in T$.



            So the size of each of the orbits is $|S:S cap T|$ (which equals $|T:S cap T|$). Your question boils down to what can be said about the intersections of the different Sylow $p$-subgroups. These do not have to be equal as the example of $S_3 times S_3$ and its Sylow $2$-subgroups demonstrate (see @Verret). Finally observe, since the oribit size of $S$ itself is $1$ as you remarked, the number Sylow $p$-subgroups $n_p(G) equiv 1$ mod $|S:S cap T|$, where $|S cap T|$ is chosen to be as large as possible among the $T$'s not equal to $S$. This generalizes the regular formula $n_p(G) equiv 1$ mod $p$.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$


















              4












              $begingroup$

              Let $mathcal{S}={S leq G: S in Syl_p(G)}$ be the set of Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$. Fix a $S in mathcal{S}$ and let $S$ act on $mathcal{S}$ by conjugation. Then the length of an orbit of a $T in mathcal{S}$ is clearly $|S:N_S(T)|$, the index of the normalizer of $T$ relative to $S$. The following holds true.



              Proposition Let $S,T$ be Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$, then $N_S(T)=S cap T=N_T(S)$.



              Proof Let's prove the first equality, since by symmetry the other holds to. Clearly if $x in S cap T$, then $x in N_S(T)$. So assume $x in N_S(T)$, in particular $x in S $. Then $langle x rangle T$ is a subgroup. And, it is a $p$-subgroup, since $|langle x rangle T|=frac{|langle x rangle| cdot |T|}{|langle x rangle cap T|}$ and note that $x$ is a $p$-element. But $T subseteq langle x rangle T$, but $T$ is a maximal $p$-subgroup since it is Sylow. Hence $T = langle x rangle T$, that is, $x in T$.



              So the size of each of the orbits is $|S:S cap T|$ (which equals $|T:S cap T|$). Your question boils down to what can be said about the intersections of the different Sylow $p$-subgroups. These do not have to be equal as the example of $S_3 times S_3$ and its Sylow $2$-subgroups demonstrate (see @Verret). Finally observe, since the oribit size of $S$ itself is $1$ as you remarked, the number Sylow $p$-subgroups $n_p(G) equiv 1$ mod $|S:S cap T|$, where $|S cap T|$ is chosen to be as large as possible among the $T$'s not equal to $S$. This generalizes the regular formula $n_p(G) equiv 1$ mod $p$.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$
















                4












                4








                4





                $begingroup$

                Let $mathcal{S}={S leq G: S in Syl_p(G)}$ be the set of Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$. Fix a $S in mathcal{S}$ and let $S$ act on $mathcal{S}$ by conjugation. Then the length of an orbit of a $T in mathcal{S}$ is clearly $|S:N_S(T)|$, the index of the normalizer of $T$ relative to $S$. The following holds true.



                Proposition Let $S,T$ be Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$, then $N_S(T)=S cap T=N_T(S)$.



                Proof Let's prove the first equality, since by symmetry the other holds to. Clearly if $x in S cap T$, then $x in N_S(T)$. So assume $x in N_S(T)$, in particular $x in S $. Then $langle x rangle T$ is a subgroup. And, it is a $p$-subgroup, since $|langle x rangle T|=frac{|langle x rangle| cdot |T|}{|langle x rangle cap T|}$ and note that $x$ is a $p$-element. But $T subseteq langle x rangle T$, but $T$ is a maximal $p$-subgroup since it is Sylow. Hence $T = langle x rangle T$, that is, $x in T$.



                So the size of each of the orbits is $|S:S cap T|$ (which equals $|T:S cap T|$). Your question boils down to what can be said about the intersections of the different Sylow $p$-subgroups. These do not have to be equal as the example of $S_3 times S_3$ and its Sylow $2$-subgroups demonstrate (see @Verret). Finally observe, since the oribit size of $S$ itself is $1$ as you remarked, the number Sylow $p$-subgroups $n_p(G) equiv 1$ mod $|S:S cap T|$, where $|S cap T|$ is chosen to be as large as possible among the $T$'s not equal to $S$. This generalizes the regular formula $n_p(G) equiv 1$ mod $p$.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$



                Let $mathcal{S}={S leq G: S in Syl_p(G)}$ be the set of Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$. Fix a $S in mathcal{S}$ and let $S$ act on $mathcal{S}$ by conjugation. Then the length of an orbit of a $T in mathcal{S}$ is clearly $|S:N_S(T)|$, the index of the normalizer of $T$ relative to $S$. The following holds true.



                Proposition Let $S,T$ be Sylow $p$-subgroups of $G$, then $N_S(T)=S cap T=N_T(S)$.



                Proof Let's prove the first equality, since by symmetry the other holds to. Clearly if $x in S cap T$, then $x in N_S(T)$. So assume $x in N_S(T)$, in particular $x in S $. Then $langle x rangle T$ is a subgroup. And, it is a $p$-subgroup, since $|langle x rangle T|=frac{|langle x rangle| cdot |T|}{|langle x rangle cap T|}$ and note that $x$ is a $p$-element. But $T subseteq langle x rangle T$, but $T$ is a maximal $p$-subgroup since it is Sylow. Hence $T = langle x rangle T$, that is, $x in T$.



                So the size of each of the orbits is $|S:S cap T|$ (which equals $|T:S cap T|$). Your question boils down to what can be said about the intersections of the different Sylow $p$-subgroups. These do not have to be equal as the example of $S_3 times S_3$ and its Sylow $2$-subgroups demonstrate (see @Verret). Finally observe, since the oribit size of $S$ itself is $1$ as you remarked, the number Sylow $p$-subgroups $n_p(G) equiv 1$ mod $|S:S cap T|$, where $|S cap T|$ is chosen to be as large as possible among the $T$'s not equal to $S$. This generalizes the regular formula $n_p(G) equiv 1$ mod $p$.







                share|cite|improve this answer














                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer








                edited Jan 9 at 15:23

























                answered Jan 9 at 14:59









                Nicky HeksterNicky Hekster

                28.8k63456




                28.8k63456























                    7












                    $begingroup$

                    By computer calculation, the smallest counterexample is $S_3^2$ which has $9$ Sylow $2$-subgroups, and the action of one of them by conjugation has one fixed point, one orbit of length $4$, and two orbits of size $2$.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$













                    • $begingroup$
                      Thank you for your answer! I accepted Nicky's answer but yours was equally helpful. I have one question; what software/program did you use? (I have never used computers for calculations involving groups and I am curious if there is any suggestion.)
                      $endgroup$
                      – Ken
                      Jan 10 at 1:28






                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      I used "magma", which is not free, but they have a free online calculator at magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/calc which is more than good enough for easy calculations like this. A free alternative is "GAP" gap-system.org
                      $endgroup$
                      – verret
                      Jan 10 at 3:04






                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      Just to get you started, this is a program that runs through the groups of order at most 10 and prints the order of their sylow subgroups: for n in [1..10] do for i in [1..NumberOfSmallGroups(n)] do G:=SmallGroup(n,i); for p in PrimeDivisors(Order(G)) do P:=SylowSubgroup(G,p); [n,i,p]; #P; end for; end for; end for;
                      $endgroup$
                      – verret
                      Jan 10 at 3:07
















                    7












                    $begingroup$

                    By computer calculation, the smallest counterexample is $S_3^2$ which has $9$ Sylow $2$-subgroups, and the action of one of them by conjugation has one fixed point, one orbit of length $4$, and two orbits of size $2$.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$













                    • $begingroup$
                      Thank you for your answer! I accepted Nicky's answer but yours was equally helpful. I have one question; what software/program did you use? (I have never used computers for calculations involving groups and I am curious if there is any suggestion.)
                      $endgroup$
                      – Ken
                      Jan 10 at 1:28






                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      I used "magma", which is not free, but they have a free online calculator at magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/calc which is more than good enough for easy calculations like this. A free alternative is "GAP" gap-system.org
                      $endgroup$
                      – verret
                      Jan 10 at 3:04






                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      Just to get you started, this is a program that runs through the groups of order at most 10 and prints the order of their sylow subgroups: for n in [1..10] do for i in [1..NumberOfSmallGroups(n)] do G:=SmallGroup(n,i); for p in PrimeDivisors(Order(G)) do P:=SylowSubgroup(G,p); [n,i,p]; #P; end for; end for; end for;
                      $endgroup$
                      – verret
                      Jan 10 at 3:07














                    7












                    7








                    7





                    $begingroup$

                    By computer calculation, the smallest counterexample is $S_3^2$ which has $9$ Sylow $2$-subgroups, and the action of one of them by conjugation has one fixed point, one orbit of length $4$, and two orbits of size $2$.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    By computer calculation, the smallest counterexample is $S_3^2$ which has $9$ Sylow $2$-subgroups, and the action of one of them by conjugation has one fixed point, one orbit of length $4$, and two orbits of size $2$.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered Jan 9 at 5:23









                    verretverret

                    3,1881922




                    3,1881922












                    • $begingroup$
                      Thank you for your answer! I accepted Nicky's answer but yours was equally helpful. I have one question; what software/program did you use? (I have never used computers for calculations involving groups and I am curious if there is any suggestion.)
                      $endgroup$
                      – Ken
                      Jan 10 at 1:28






                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      I used "magma", which is not free, but they have a free online calculator at magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/calc which is more than good enough for easy calculations like this. A free alternative is "GAP" gap-system.org
                      $endgroup$
                      – verret
                      Jan 10 at 3:04






                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      Just to get you started, this is a program that runs through the groups of order at most 10 and prints the order of their sylow subgroups: for n in [1..10] do for i in [1..NumberOfSmallGroups(n)] do G:=SmallGroup(n,i); for p in PrimeDivisors(Order(G)) do P:=SylowSubgroup(G,p); [n,i,p]; #P; end for; end for; end for;
                      $endgroup$
                      – verret
                      Jan 10 at 3:07


















                    • $begingroup$
                      Thank you for your answer! I accepted Nicky's answer but yours was equally helpful. I have one question; what software/program did you use? (I have never used computers for calculations involving groups and I am curious if there is any suggestion.)
                      $endgroup$
                      – Ken
                      Jan 10 at 1:28






                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      I used "magma", which is not free, but they have a free online calculator at magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/calc which is more than good enough for easy calculations like this. A free alternative is "GAP" gap-system.org
                      $endgroup$
                      – verret
                      Jan 10 at 3:04






                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      Just to get you started, this is a program that runs through the groups of order at most 10 and prints the order of their sylow subgroups: for n in [1..10] do for i in [1..NumberOfSmallGroups(n)] do G:=SmallGroup(n,i); for p in PrimeDivisors(Order(G)) do P:=SylowSubgroup(G,p); [n,i,p]; #P; end for; end for; end for;
                      $endgroup$
                      – verret
                      Jan 10 at 3:07
















                    $begingroup$
                    Thank you for your answer! I accepted Nicky's answer but yours was equally helpful. I have one question; what software/program did you use? (I have never used computers for calculations involving groups and I am curious if there is any suggestion.)
                    $endgroup$
                    – Ken
                    Jan 10 at 1:28




                    $begingroup$
                    Thank you for your answer! I accepted Nicky's answer but yours was equally helpful. I have one question; what software/program did you use? (I have never used computers for calculations involving groups and I am curious if there is any suggestion.)
                    $endgroup$
                    – Ken
                    Jan 10 at 1:28




                    1




                    1




                    $begingroup$
                    I used "magma", which is not free, but they have a free online calculator at magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/calc which is more than good enough for easy calculations like this. A free alternative is "GAP" gap-system.org
                    $endgroup$
                    – verret
                    Jan 10 at 3:04




                    $begingroup$
                    I used "magma", which is not free, but they have a free online calculator at magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/calc which is more than good enough for easy calculations like this. A free alternative is "GAP" gap-system.org
                    $endgroup$
                    – verret
                    Jan 10 at 3:04




                    1




                    1




                    $begingroup$
                    Just to get you started, this is a program that runs through the groups of order at most 10 and prints the order of their sylow subgroups: for n in [1..10] do for i in [1..NumberOfSmallGroups(n)] do G:=SmallGroup(n,i); for p in PrimeDivisors(Order(G)) do P:=SylowSubgroup(G,p); [n,i,p]; #P; end for; end for; end for;
                    $endgroup$
                    – verret
                    Jan 10 at 3:07




                    $begingroup$
                    Just to get you started, this is a program that runs through the groups of order at most 10 and prints the order of their sylow subgroups: for n in [1..10] do for i in [1..NumberOfSmallGroups(n)] do G:=SmallGroup(n,i); for p in PrimeDivisors(Order(G)) do P:=SylowSubgroup(G,p); [n,i,p]; #P; end for; end for; end for;
                    $endgroup$
                    – verret
                    Jan 10 at 3:07


















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