At what point is the Tavern Brawler feat better than a stat bump to Str or Dex?
$begingroup$
At what point is it statistically better to take Tavern Brawler over an increase to Str or Dex if 1/3 of all your attacks are made with an improvised weapon?
Example: A Thief rogue 4/Champion fighter 5, with 16 Dex.
You make two attacks a turn with the Attack action, and one (throwing an acid vial) with the Fast Hands thief feature:
Two attacks with dagger: +7 to hit 1d4+3 (6)
If one of daggers hit assume sneak attack applies 2d6 (8)
One attack with an acid vial: +3 to hit 2d6+3 (11)
Statistically, would it be better to take Tavern Brawler for all 3 attacks to be at +7 to hit?
Or should I put the ASI into Dex for two +8 to hit and +4 to hit?
dnd-5e feats optimization ability-scores improvised-weaponry
asked Jan 26 at 4:59
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
$endgroup$
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
At what point is it statistically better to take Tavern Brawler over an increase to Str or Dex if 1/3 of all your attacks are made with an improvised weapon?
Example: A Thief rogue 4/Champion fighter 5, with 16 Dex.
You make two attacks a turn with the Attack action, and one (throwing an acid vial) with the Fast Hands thief feature:
Two attacks with dagger: +7 to hit 1d4+3 (6)
If one of daggers hit assume sneak attack applies 2d6 (8)
One attack with an acid vial: +3 to hit 2d6+3 (11)
Statistically, would it be better to take Tavern Brawler for all 3 attacks to be at +7 to hit?
Or should I put the ASI into Dex for two +8 to hit and +4 to hit?
dnd-5e feats optimization ability-scores improvised-weaponry
asked Jan 26 at 4:59
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
What damage do you deal with the non-improvised attacks?
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 5:08
$begingroup$
For simplicity lets say 1d4
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 5:10
$begingroup$
Are we including the bonus action grapple in this statistical analysis? If so it may be too broad
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 5:11
$begingroup$
Edited for clarification
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 5:19
$begingroup$
Will the DM allow you to sneak attack with the acid vial?
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 6:24
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
At what point is it statistically better to take Tavern Brawler over an increase to Str or Dex if 1/3 of all your attacks are made with an improvised weapon?
Example: A Thief rogue 4/Champion fighter 5, with 16 Dex.
You make two attacks a turn with the Attack action, and one (throwing an acid vial) with the Fast Hands thief feature:
Two attacks with dagger: +7 to hit 1d4+3 (6)
If one of daggers hit assume sneak attack applies 2d6 (8)
One attack with an acid vial: +3 to hit 2d6+3 (11)
Statistically, would it be better to take Tavern Brawler for all 3 attacks to be at +7 to hit?
Or should I put the ASI into Dex for two +8 to hit and +4 to hit?
dnd-5e feats optimization ability-scores improvised-weaponry
asked Jan 26 at 4:59
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
$endgroup$
At what point is it statistically better to take Tavern Brawler over an increase to Str or Dex if 1/3 of all your attacks are made with an improvised weapon?
Example: A Thief rogue 4/Champion fighter 5, with 16 Dex.
You make two attacks a turn with the Attack action, and one (throwing an acid vial) with the Fast Hands thief feature:
Two attacks with dagger: +7 to hit 1d4+3 (6)
If one of daggers hit assume sneak attack applies 2d6 (8)
One attack with an acid vial: +3 to hit 2d6+3 (11)
Statistically, would it be better to take Tavern Brawler for all 3 attacks to be at +7 to hit?
Or should I put the ASI into Dex for two +8 to hit and +4 to hit?
dnd-5e feats optimization ability-scores improvised-weaponry
dnd-5e feats optimization ability-scores improvised-weaponry
asked Jan 26 at 4:59
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
asked Jan 26 at 4:59
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
edited Jan 26 at 5:44
Deceptecium
asked Jan 26 at 4:59
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
asked Jan 26 at 4:59
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
asked Jan 26 at 4:59
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
1,061319
$begingroup$
What damage do you deal with the non-improvised attacks?
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 5:08
$begingroup$
For simplicity lets say 1d4
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 5:10
$begingroup$
Are we including the bonus action grapple in this statistical analysis? If so it may be too broad
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 5:11
$begingroup$
Edited for clarification
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 5:19
$begingroup$
Will the DM allow you to sneak attack with the acid vial?
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 6:24
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
What damage do you deal with the non-improvised attacks?
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 5:08
$begingroup$
For simplicity lets say 1d4
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 5:10
$begingroup$
Are we including the bonus action grapple in this statistical analysis? If so it may be too broad
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 5:11
$begingroup$
Edited for clarification
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 5:19
$begingroup$
Will the DM allow you to sneak attack with the acid vial?
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 6:24
$begingroup$
What damage do you deal with the non-improvised attacks?
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 5:08
$begingroup$
What damage do you deal with the non-improvised attacks?
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 5:08
$begingroup$
For simplicity lets say 1d4
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 5:10
$begingroup$
For simplicity lets say 1d4
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 5:10
$begingroup$
Are we including the bonus action grapple in this statistical analysis? If so it may be too broad
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 5:11
$begingroup$
Are we including the bonus action grapple in this statistical analysis? If so it may be too broad
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 5:11
$begingroup$
Edited for clarification
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 5:19
$begingroup$
Edited for clarification
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 5:19
$begingroup$
Will the DM allow you to sneak attack with the acid vial?
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 6:24
$begingroup$
Will the DM allow you to sneak attack with the acid vial?
$endgroup$
– Ruse
Jan 26 at 6:24
|
show 3 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The two options for you are actually stunningly close, statistically.
Mechanically, Tavern Brawler is statistically better if you are fighting enemies with an AC of 18 or above, while the ASI is better for AC 17 or below. However, the difference never amounts to more than 0.4 DPR.
Link to statistical analysis: https://anydice.com/program/1343d
My analysis assumes that you are always attacking without advantage, but that sneak attack is always possible. If you have advantage on your first attack, you will likely be better off with the ASI. I also assume that you are not attacking with STR or that the +1 to STR/CON from Tavern Brawler would not round out your STR score to an even value.
Because these two options are so close in combat, it may be worth considering out of combat mechanics as well. Vials of acid are both costly and consumable, so they may not always be available. Additionally, putting an ASI into DEX would improve your AC, stealth, sleight of hand, and many other useful abilities.
On the other hand, Tavern Brawler does create many useful roleplaying opportunities.
tl;dr The two options are nearly identical in combat, so other abilities and character traits should be the basis of your decision.
answered Jan 26 at 6:19
the_moooonthe_moooon
1,053413
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks that's exactly what I was wondering and I was testing it with best of both in mind. Ie throwing vial but not having sneak attack tavern might be better. Whereas getting sneak attack and throwing oil would be in asi favor
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:24
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If we were to consider a a.c. 17 monster
Taking tavern brawler for +7 on all three attacks would thus make it so you hit on a 10 or higher on d20
Meaning 11/20 sides on d20 would be a hit or 55% to hit for each attack
The damage would be multiplied by .55
To all three attacks at total 17.5
Taking asi increase to dex makes the hit
A 9 or higher on d20 for daggers 12/20
And 1d4+4 damage each. 13.2
Vial to hit +4 or 13 or higher on d20 8/20
2d6+4 damage (12) 4.8
Total 18
Increasing asi increases accuracy on dagger attacks and thus applying sneak when applicable
Also increasing asi increases damage of all 3.
So in final if more than half of attacks are made with improvised weapons take tavern brawler. If more are made with normal weapon attacks take the asi.
Not sure if my math is correct but this is where I got equation How do you calculate average damage for DPR comparisons?
answered Jan 26 at 6:09
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Note that if you just hit Enter once, it will not create a new line. You either need to type two spaces at the end of a line and then hit Enter (for a line break), or you need to hit Enter twice (for a paragraph break).
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:29
$begingroup$
Oh!! Sorry v2 >~< still getting used to this figured out how to bold stuff though!!
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:33
1
$begingroup$
No worries. See here for more help with editing and markdown: rpg.stackexchange.com/editing-help
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:35
$begingroup$
Thanks ill look at it today!!
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 14:35
add a comment |
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The two options for you are actually stunningly close, statistically.
Mechanically, Tavern Brawler is statistically better if you are fighting enemies with an AC of 18 or above, while the ASI is better for AC 17 or below. However, the difference never amounts to more than 0.4 DPR.
Link to statistical analysis: https://anydice.com/program/1343d
My analysis assumes that you are always attacking without advantage, but that sneak attack is always possible. If you have advantage on your first attack, you will likely be better off with the ASI. I also assume that you are not attacking with STR or that the +1 to STR/CON from Tavern Brawler would not round out your STR score to an even value.
Because these two options are so close in combat, it may be worth considering out of combat mechanics as well. Vials of acid are both costly and consumable, so they may not always be available. Additionally, putting an ASI into DEX would improve your AC, stealth, sleight of hand, and many other useful abilities.
On the other hand, Tavern Brawler does create many useful roleplaying opportunities.
tl;dr The two options are nearly identical in combat, so other abilities and character traits should be the basis of your decision.
answered Jan 26 at 6:19
the_moooonthe_moooon
1,053413
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks that's exactly what I was wondering and I was testing it with best of both in mind. Ie throwing vial but not having sneak attack tavern might be better. Whereas getting sneak attack and throwing oil would be in asi favor
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:24
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The two options for you are actually stunningly close, statistically.
Mechanically, Tavern Brawler is statistically better if you are fighting enemies with an AC of 18 or above, while the ASI is better for AC 17 or below. However, the difference never amounts to more than 0.4 DPR.
Link to statistical analysis: https://anydice.com/program/1343d
My analysis assumes that you are always attacking without advantage, but that sneak attack is always possible. If you have advantage on your first attack, you will likely be better off with the ASI. I also assume that you are not attacking with STR or that the +1 to STR/CON from Tavern Brawler would not round out your STR score to an even value.
Because these two options are so close in combat, it may be worth considering out of combat mechanics as well. Vials of acid are both costly and consumable, so they may not always be available. Additionally, putting an ASI into DEX would improve your AC, stealth, sleight of hand, and many other useful abilities.
On the other hand, Tavern Brawler does create many useful roleplaying opportunities.
tl;dr The two options are nearly identical in combat, so other abilities and character traits should be the basis of your decision.
answered Jan 26 at 6:19
the_moooonthe_moooon
1,053413
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks that's exactly what I was wondering and I was testing it with best of both in mind. Ie throwing vial but not having sneak attack tavern might be better. Whereas getting sneak attack and throwing oil would be in asi favor
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:24
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The two options for you are actually stunningly close, statistically.
Mechanically, Tavern Brawler is statistically better if you are fighting enemies with an AC of 18 or above, while the ASI is better for AC 17 or below. However, the difference never amounts to more than 0.4 DPR.
Link to statistical analysis: https://anydice.com/program/1343d
My analysis assumes that you are always attacking without advantage, but that sneak attack is always possible. If you have advantage on your first attack, you will likely be better off with the ASI. I also assume that you are not attacking with STR or that the +1 to STR/CON from Tavern Brawler would not round out your STR score to an even value.
Because these two options are so close in combat, it may be worth considering out of combat mechanics as well. Vials of acid are both costly and consumable, so they may not always be available. Additionally, putting an ASI into DEX would improve your AC, stealth, sleight of hand, and many other useful abilities.
On the other hand, Tavern Brawler does create many useful roleplaying opportunities.
tl;dr The two options are nearly identical in combat, so other abilities and character traits should be the basis of your decision.
answered Jan 26 at 6:19
the_moooonthe_moooon
1,053413
$endgroup$
The two options for you are actually stunningly close, statistically.
Mechanically, Tavern Brawler is statistically better if you are fighting enemies with an AC of 18 or above, while the ASI is better for AC 17 or below. However, the difference never amounts to more than 0.4 DPR.
Link to statistical analysis: https://anydice.com/program/1343d
My analysis assumes that you are always attacking without advantage, but that sneak attack is always possible. If you have advantage on your first attack, you will likely be better off with the ASI. I also assume that you are not attacking with STR or that the +1 to STR/CON from Tavern Brawler would not round out your STR score to an even value.
Because these two options are so close in combat, it may be worth considering out of combat mechanics as well. Vials of acid are both costly and consumable, so they may not always be available. Additionally, putting an ASI into DEX would improve your AC, stealth, sleight of hand, and many other useful abilities.
On the other hand, Tavern Brawler does create many useful roleplaying opportunities.
tl;dr The two options are nearly identical in combat, so other abilities and character traits should be the basis of your decision.
answered Jan 26 at 6:19
the_moooonthe_moooon
1,053413
edited Jan 26 at 6:27
answered Jan 26 at 6:19
the_moooonthe_moooon
1,053413
answered Jan 26 at 6:19
the_moooonthe_moooon
1,053413
answered Jan 26 at 6:19
the_moooonthe_moooon
1,053413
1,053413
$begingroup$
Thanks that's exactly what I was wondering and I was testing it with best of both in mind. Ie throwing vial but not having sneak attack tavern might be better. Whereas getting sneak attack and throwing oil would be in asi favor
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:24
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thanks that's exactly what I was wondering and I was testing it with best of both in mind. Ie throwing vial but not having sneak attack tavern might be better. Whereas getting sneak attack and throwing oil would be in asi favor
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:24
$begingroup$
Thanks that's exactly what I was wondering and I was testing it with best of both in mind. Ie throwing vial but not having sneak attack tavern might be better. Whereas getting sneak attack and throwing oil would be in asi favor
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:24
$begingroup$
Thanks that's exactly what I was wondering and I was testing it with best of both in mind. Ie throwing vial but not having sneak attack tavern might be better. Whereas getting sneak attack and throwing oil would be in asi favor
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:24
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If we were to consider a a.c. 17 monster
Taking tavern brawler for +7 on all three attacks would thus make it so you hit on a 10 or higher on d20
Meaning 11/20 sides on d20 would be a hit or 55% to hit for each attack
The damage would be multiplied by .55
To all three attacks at total 17.5
Taking asi increase to dex makes the hit
A 9 or higher on d20 for daggers 12/20
And 1d4+4 damage each. 13.2
Vial to hit +4 or 13 or higher on d20 8/20
2d6+4 damage (12) 4.8
Total 18
Increasing asi increases accuracy on dagger attacks and thus applying sneak when applicable
Also increasing asi increases damage of all 3.
So in final if more than half of attacks are made with improvised weapons take tavern brawler. If more are made with normal weapon attacks take the asi.
Not sure if my math is correct but this is where I got equation How do you calculate average damage for DPR comparisons?
answered Jan 26 at 6:09
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Note that if you just hit Enter once, it will not create a new line. You either need to type two spaces at the end of a line and then hit Enter (for a line break), or you need to hit Enter twice (for a paragraph break).
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:29
$begingroup$
Oh!! Sorry v2 >~< still getting used to this figured out how to bold stuff though!!
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:33
1
$begingroup$
No worries. See here for more help with editing and markdown: rpg.stackexchange.com/editing-help
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:35
$begingroup$
Thanks ill look at it today!!
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 14:35
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If we were to consider a a.c. 17 monster
Taking tavern brawler for +7 on all three attacks would thus make it so you hit on a 10 or higher on d20
Meaning 11/20 sides on d20 would be a hit or 55% to hit for each attack
The damage would be multiplied by .55
To all three attacks at total 17.5
Taking asi increase to dex makes the hit
A 9 or higher on d20 for daggers 12/20
And 1d4+4 damage each. 13.2
Vial to hit +4 or 13 or higher on d20 8/20
2d6+4 damage (12) 4.8
Total 18
Increasing asi increases accuracy on dagger attacks and thus applying sneak when applicable
Also increasing asi increases damage of all 3.
So in final if more than half of attacks are made with improvised weapons take tavern brawler. If more are made with normal weapon attacks take the asi.
Not sure if my math is correct but this is where I got equation How do you calculate average damage for DPR comparisons?
answered Jan 26 at 6:09
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Note that if you just hit Enter once, it will not create a new line. You either need to type two spaces at the end of a line and then hit Enter (for a line break), or you need to hit Enter twice (for a paragraph break).
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:29
$begingroup$
Oh!! Sorry v2 >~< still getting used to this figured out how to bold stuff though!!
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:33
1
$begingroup$
No worries. See here for more help with editing and markdown: rpg.stackexchange.com/editing-help
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:35
$begingroup$
Thanks ill look at it today!!
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 14:35
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If we were to consider a a.c. 17 monster
Taking tavern brawler for +7 on all three attacks would thus make it so you hit on a 10 or higher on d20
Meaning 11/20 sides on d20 would be a hit or 55% to hit for each attack
The damage would be multiplied by .55
To all three attacks at total 17.5
Taking asi increase to dex makes the hit
A 9 or higher on d20 for daggers 12/20
And 1d4+4 damage each. 13.2
Vial to hit +4 or 13 or higher on d20 8/20
2d6+4 damage (12) 4.8
Total 18
Increasing asi increases accuracy on dagger attacks and thus applying sneak when applicable
Also increasing asi increases damage of all 3.
So in final if more than half of attacks are made with improvised weapons take tavern brawler. If more are made with normal weapon attacks take the asi.
Not sure if my math is correct but this is where I got equation How do you calculate average damage for DPR comparisons?
answered Jan 26 at 6:09
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
$endgroup$
If we were to consider a a.c. 17 monster
Taking tavern brawler for +7 on all three attacks would thus make it so you hit on a 10 or higher on d20
Meaning 11/20 sides on d20 would be a hit or 55% to hit for each attack
The damage would be multiplied by .55
To all three attacks at total 17.5
Taking asi increase to dex makes the hit
A 9 or higher on d20 for daggers 12/20
And 1d4+4 damage each. 13.2
Vial to hit +4 or 13 or higher on d20 8/20
2d6+4 damage (12) 4.8
Total 18
Increasing asi increases accuracy on dagger attacks and thus applying sneak when applicable
Also increasing asi increases damage of all 3.
So in final if more than half of attacks are made with improvised weapons take tavern brawler. If more are made with normal weapon attacks take the asi.
Not sure if my math is correct but this is where I got equation How do you calculate average damage for DPR comparisons?
answered Jan 26 at 6:09
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
answered Jan 26 at 6:09
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
answered Jan 26 at 6:09
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
answered Jan 26 at 6:09
DecepteciumDeceptecium
1,061319
1,061319
$begingroup$
Note that if you just hit Enter once, it will not create a new line. You either need to type two spaces at the end of a line and then hit Enter (for a line break), or you need to hit Enter twice (for a paragraph break).
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:29
$begingroup$
Oh!! Sorry v2 >~< still getting used to this figured out how to bold stuff though!!
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:33
1
$begingroup$
No worries. See here for more help with editing and markdown: rpg.stackexchange.com/editing-help
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:35
$begingroup$
Thanks ill look at it today!!
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 14:35
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Note that if you just hit Enter once, it will not create a new line. You either need to type two spaces at the end of a line and then hit Enter (for a line break), or you need to hit Enter twice (for a paragraph break).
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:29
$begingroup$
Oh!! Sorry v2 >~< still getting used to this figured out how to bold stuff though!!
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:33
1
$begingroup$
No worries. See here for more help with editing and markdown: rpg.stackexchange.com/editing-help
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:35
$begingroup$
Thanks ill look at it today!!
$endgroup$
– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 14:35
$begingroup$
Note that if you just hit Enter once, it will not create a new line. You either need to type two spaces at the end of a line and then hit Enter (for a line break), or you need to hit Enter twice (for a paragraph break).
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:29
$begingroup$
Note that if you just hit Enter once, it will not create a new line. You either need to type two spaces at the end of a line and then hit Enter (for a line break), or you need to hit Enter twice (for a paragraph break).
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– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:29
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Oh!! Sorry v2 >~< still getting used to this figured out how to bold stuff though!!
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– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:33
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Oh!! Sorry v2 >~< still getting used to this figured out how to bold stuff though!!
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– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 6:33
1
1
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No worries. See here for more help with editing and markdown: rpg.stackexchange.com/editing-help
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– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:35
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No worries. See here for more help with editing and markdown: rpg.stackexchange.com/editing-help
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– V2Blast
Jan 26 at 6:35
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Thanks ill look at it today!!
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– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 14:35
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Thanks ill look at it today!!
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– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 14:35
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What damage do you deal with the non-improvised attacks?
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– Ruse
Jan 26 at 5:08
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For simplicity lets say 1d4
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– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 5:10
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Are we including the bonus action grapple in this statistical analysis? If so it may be too broad
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– Ruse
Jan 26 at 5:11
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Edited for clarification
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– Deceptecium
Jan 26 at 5:19
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Will the DM allow you to sneak attack with the acid vial?
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– Ruse
Jan 26 at 6:24