How could quantum effects occur in the early universe without an observer?












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In inflationary cosmology, primordial quantum fluctuations in the process of inflation are considered responsible for the asymmetry and lumpiness of the universe that was shaped. However, according to the Copenhagen interpretation, any random quantum phenomenon only occurs when the system is observed; before observation, the quantum state is symmetric. So the question is, who has observed the universe while it was inflating? Obviously, there was no conscious creature that time.



Actually, this problem is discussed in the paper The Bohmian Approach to the Problems of Cosmological Quantum Fluctuations (Goldstein, Struyve and Tumulka; arXiv:1508.01017), and the proposed solution to the problem in said to be an observer-independent interpretation (the pilot-wave theory).










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    – rob
    Jan 13 at 6:01
















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In inflationary cosmology, primordial quantum fluctuations in the process of inflation are considered responsible for the asymmetry and lumpiness of the universe that was shaped. However, according to the Copenhagen interpretation, any random quantum phenomenon only occurs when the system is observed; before observation, the quantum state is symmetric. So the question is, who has observed the universe while it was inflating? Obviously, there was no conscious creature that time.



Actually, this problem is discussed in the paper The Bohmian Approach to the Problems of Cosmological Quantum Fluctuations (Goldstein, Struyve and Tumulka; arXiv:1508.01017), and the proposed solution to the problem in said to be an observer-independent interpretation (the pilot-wave theory).










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    – rob
    Jan 13 at 6:01














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In inflationary cosmology, primordial quantum fluctuations in the process of inflation are considered responsible for the asymmetry and lumpiness of the universe that was shaped. However, according to the Copenhagen interpretation, any random quantum phenomenon only occurs when the system is observed; before observation, the quantum state is symmetric. So the question is, who has observed the universe while it was inflating? Obviously, there was no conscious creature that time.



Actually, this problem is discussed in the paper The Bohmian Approach to the Problems of Cosmological Quantum Fluctuations (Goldstein, Struyve and Tumulka; arXiv:1508.01017), and the proposed solution to the problem in said to be an observer-independent interpretation (the pilot-wave theory).










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In inflationary cosmology, primordial quantum fluctuations in the process of inflation are considered responsible for the asymmetry and lumpiness of the universe that was shaped. However, according to the Copenhagen interpretation, any random quantum phenomenon only occurs when the system is observed; before observation, the quantum state is symmetric. So the question is, who has observed the universe while it was inflating? Obviously, there was no conscious creature that time.



Actually, this problem is discussed in the paper The Bohmian Approach to the Problems of Cosmological Quantum Fluctuations (Goldstein, Struyve and Tumulka; arXiv:1508.01017), and the proposed solution to the problem in said to be an observer-independent interpretation (the pilot-wave theory).







quantum-mechanics big-bang observers quantum-interpretations bohmian-mechanics






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edited Jan 11 at 17:03









David Richerby

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asked Jan 10 at 21:52









Ali LavasaniAli Lavasani

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    – rob
    Jan 13 at 6:01


















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– rob
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– rob
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“Observe” oftentimes causes a lot of confusion for this exact reason. It doesn’t actually refer to some conscious entity making an observation.



Rather, think about how we actually make an observation about something. You have to interact with the system in some way. This can be through the exchange of photons, for example. This interaction is what constitutes an observation having taken place.



Obviously, particles can undergo their fundamental interactions without a nearby sentient entity.



For the sake of analogy, consider measuring air pressure in a tire. In the process of doing so, you let out some air — changing the tire pressure in the process.






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    According to the Copenhagen interpretation, the wavefunction collapse is "subjective", it DOES depend on the act of observation, and doesn't have anything to do with physical and experimental imperfections like the exchange of photon. If you say that the wavefunction can collapse automatically, you are advocating "objective-collapse" interpretations, which are proposed by some people like Roger Penrose, but are not mainstream.
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    You have a misunderstanding. Collapse of the wave function in the Copenhagen interpretation is caused by a thermodynamically irreversible interaction with a classical environment. I agree — it does depend on the act of observation. Observation just doesn’t mean what you think it does.
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    @AliLavasani The point is that exchange of photon is not an experimental imperfection, but that observation without it is impossible, so that it is a fundamental part of the observation. I believe I have been told that the realization of 'you can't observe something without interacting with it and hence changing it' is what led Bohr to the Copenhagen interpretation but maybe I misremember. Others here are more knowledgeable on this history.
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    Aren't observations interactions only between a "classical system" and a quantum system? If we don't divide the Universe in different system, but describe it by a single state, there wouldn't be any observations.
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    The von Neumann interpretation requires consciousness, the Copenhagen interpretation only requires a measurement. But what constitutes such a measurement remains unclear and opinions on it are divided. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
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The Copenhagen interpretation isn't an essential part of quantum mechanics. It isn't required in order to make physical processes happen. It's just a way of describing what seems to happen when an observer makes a measurement. It's not even the only way of describing what it seems like to the observer.




However, according to the Copenhagen interpretation, any random quantum phenomenon only occurs when the system is observed; [...]




If you don't use the Copenhagen interpretation, quantum mechanics still works fine. In your example of the early universe, all the quantum-mechanical processes work in the same way. E.g., a hydrogen atom in an $n=3$ state will radiate light, and at a later time it will be in a superposition of $n=2$ and $n=1$. No randomness, just a superposition.




[...] before observation, the quantum state is symmetric.




I'm not sure what you mean by symmetric here. This seems like a nonstandard description.






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    You say there has been a "superposition" of all possible outcomes in the inflation, so what has destroyed the superposition? In Copenhagen, ONLY observation can collapse the superposition. If you believe it has automatically collapsed, you are defending "objective collapse" interpretations, and another option is that the universe is still in superposition (the many worlds interpretation). Either way you are implying one of these two kinds of interpretations, aren't you?
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    @Wolphram Yes, any interpretation other that Copenhagen has no problem. Copenhagen shouldn't also fail, so my question is how the observation can have been done at the beginning of the universe. I don't know, maybe observation is done NOW when we look at the universe!!
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    – Ali Lavasani
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    @Wolphram Notice that Copenhagen perfectly works. Interpretations like Bohmian mechanics have more serious problems (nonlocality, or retrocausality in transactional interpretation, etc).
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    – Ali Lavasani
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    @AliLavasani how about the good old many-worlds interpretation? No wavefunction collapse, no issue choosing when it happens. The only thing that you lose is the notion that only the universe that you see is what exists. It's not that far-fetched either. An electron created by the collision of two gamma photons can only "see" a positron that flies away in the exact opposite direction, which is just a layman's way of saying that a superposition of states evolves the same as if you evolve each state separately and only then sum up the states.
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    – John Dvorak
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    @John In many worlds, you have the problem that you cannot interpret probability for your "worlds". For example, suppose the probability of quantum event A is 0.7, and the probability of quantum event B is 0.3. What does this mean? Does it mean you have 7 universes in which A happens and 3 ones in which B happens, or what?
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"Observation" is not about a human actually viewing and consciously perceiving a system. If one state is capable of affecting another state, then the latter is said to be measuring, or observing, the former. The reason conscious observation also constitutes measurement is simply because interaction with the environment is fundamentally necessary for our eyes to be able to perceive an event.






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    The Copenhagen interpretation is nothing but an impediment to understanding quantum mechanics. There is no such thing as "wave function collapse" within the system described by QM, nor in any falsifiable physical sense outside of the theory. At best it's an artificial glue for sticking quantum and classical models together; less flatteringly it's a mental crutch for people who don't want to accept that the best model of physical reality we can hope for describes not the evolution of a single deterministic state, but rather the deterministic evolution of a probability model of possible observed states.



    Ultimately what's attributed to "wave function collapse" from an act of observation is just conditional probabilities, or if you want to go even more basic, correlations between random variables. I like to explain this via analogies with other applications of conditional probability, and usually end up picking something morbid like cause of death. As a random member of a general population, you have some $X$ percent chance of dying of a particular disease. If you get DNA tests done, you might find out that you instead have a $Y$ percent chance of dying from it, where $Y$ is greater or less than $X$. No physical change took place when you had the test done to change the likelihood of dying from that particular disease. Rather, you're just able to make better predictions based on correlations.



    Now, neither QM nor any other physical theory is going to tell us much about what fine-grained observations could have been made in the very early universe, because the correlations to anything we can observe are going to be too small. But that doesn't mean the probability model didn't evolve the same way then as it does now, with all the consequences that entails.






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      It is true that observing a particle's position can be thought of as just acquiring information about its position. However, unlike the case with the disease, you can't take this to mean that the particle really had a definite, though unknown position the entire time -- such a hidden variable theory just doesn't work. That's the real subtlety of quantum mechanics, the puzzle that led people to adopt the Copenhagen interpretation in the first place. If you simply ignore it, you're not really talking about quantum mechanics at all.
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      Instead, you're just repeating what you already know about classical probability and hoping it all transfers effortlessly to quantum mechanics. The problem is, experiment tells us it doesn't. Quantum mechanics and classical mechanics are different things.
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      @R.. In most QM classes you're told that after a measurement associated to an operator "A" which leads to result "a", the state "collapses" to $|arangle$. I'd like to see same formulation with classical correlations.
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      @knzhou: I didn't assert that there is any possible hidden variable theory; quite the opposite, that QM only describes the evolution of a probability model, not of some "real state" among the elements of the probability space. Everything I've said above is roughly equivalent to how you view QM through the MWI, but without its ontological baggage which is problematic just like the CI, but for different reasons.
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      @Menno: Nothing requires "probabilities cancelling each other out". The fact that QM describes the evolution of a probability model (determined by the wave function) is not at all controversial. Interference is one consequence of the rules for how the probability model evolves. I'm not clear what you're actually objecting to.
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    If the Copenhagen interpretation is correct(unknown), and if it requires conscious observers(unknown), our observations of the universe could retroactively collapse the superpositions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed-choice_quantum_eraser .






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      This seems to mesh with some work by Hawking I was reading a while back that suggested that the present influences the early parameters of the universe.
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    If only an act of observation by a conscious (whatever it means) creature could cause a wavefunction to collapse, then it would be impossible in the first place for conscious creatures to develop in the course of history because the entire Universe would be in a continuously developing superposition of states without any collapse taking place (collapse is a necessary condition for conscious creatures to develop). Which means that conscious creatures making an observation aren't the cause for the collapse (and nor can conscious creatures now cause the collapse at the beginning of the Universe retroactively because conscious creatures couldn't have developed if the collapse is caused by them). So when inflation took place, no conscious creatures were needed to make a wavefunction collapse, and as you stated in your question, obviously there were no conscious creatures (if the collapse is caused by "a thermodynamically irreversible interaction with a classical environment" then by the same token, neither a classical environment will be able to develop).



    This means, for example, that the pattern of lines (resulting from the collapse of a whole lot of wavefunctions corresponding to photons) appearing on the screen in the double slit experiment will develop independently of some conscious creature observing the setup.



    This doesn't necessarily mean though that an observer(creature)-independent interpretation is one that postulates a pilot wave (or hidden variables). The "inherently probabilistic" interpretation will do as well. Both can make a wavefunction collapse without an observer. I think which interpretation corresponds to reality will remain unknown (unless someone comes up with an experiment to make a decision which I find hard to imagine) and be a question of "taste". Einstein was an advocate for a theory that underlies the apparent probabilistic behavior of matter ("Gott würfelt nicht", that is, "God doesn't play dice"), as a theory of hidden variables does (somewhat like the molecules surrounding a Brownian particle make the particle move in an apparent random way). But many others (like Bohr in the "famous" Bohr-Einstein debate) take an opposite stand.






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      For an interpretation of quantum mechanics that requires "conscious observers", you can assign our present-day astronomers that role. Certainly their observations are not done at the time of the early universe itself. That's just fine. No problem if you observe 15 billion years after the fact.



      The problem only exists if you insist that observations must be done simultaneous with the observed phenomenon. But simultaneity has no place in physics, such a requirement would be at variance with basic physics (relativity). Quantum mechanics does not use simultaneity, and does not prescribe when observations must be made.






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        This is I think the correct answer ! Whether observer dependant or not, these interpretations can all account for the observed facts as long as they don't rely on some "time of observation" or "time of collapse". It is the case of both the Copenhagen and the Bohmian interpretation, so same results.
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      Observation does not mean "by a human". Observation is any action on the system by outside of the system. Photons interacting, the confines of the system being changed, etc.



      Your comment above about superposition "automatically collapsing in the early universe" is wrong. A hydrogen atom with superposition of it's energy level will collapse when the value of it's energy level is needed (e.g in a physical collision) which counts as an observation. The main takeaway is that when we say observation we mean interaction with a clearly defined outcome.






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        The problem with this question is that it assumes there is some metaphysical interpretation that we can be sure is true. While we have excellent equations that work incredibly precisely, we are not sure which qualitative interpretation of these equations is real.



        There are now countless interpretations, each with their own sub-interpretations. Alexander R. Pruss splits these interpretations into two main groups - No collapse theories with a deterministically evolving wavefunctions and wavefunction collapse theories.



        Out of the collapse theories, we have the Copenhagen Interpretation, where the wavefunction collapse is triggered by a measurement. Definitions of what constitutes a measurement can differ a lot depending on the physicist/philosopher. The Ghirardi-Rimini-Weber theory is another collapse theory where the collapse is triggered at some particular rate over time. The trouble with this theory is that no spontaneous collapse has been observed in any way, and an additional parameter - that of the rate of collapse - has to be introduced and explained in some way.



        There are also many no collapse theories such as Bohmian Mechanics, the Many Worlds Interpretation, Many Minds Interpretation and Traveling Forms interpretation. In these, the universe continues to develop deterministically, but each have their own reasons as to why we can only get stochastic results from the deterministic systems upon measurement. Each of these interpretations also have their own problems. Bohmian Mechanics has the problem of nonlocality. The Many Worlds Interpretation is unclear as to how splits occur and is a bit bizarre to try to reconcile with, for example, the conservation of energy. The Many Minds interpretation leads to bizarre absurdities such as Boltzmann Minds and universes where there is just one mind surrounded by zombies. I don't think the Traveling Forms is well enough known to have its own critique, but I expect someone will come up with one at some point.



        I found an excellent study of this topic in this book: http://www.michalpaszkiewicz.co.uk/blog/reviewnapocs/index.html






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          I don't find it problematic to ask how a popular interpretation is compatible with a specific phenomenon. Your overview of other interpretations is actually nice, but that's not asked here?
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          Thanks for the comment - the OP mentioned 2 different interpretations (Copenhagen and Bohmian) and also didn't specify that there was a particular desire for an answer for the Copenhagen interpretation - so I wasn't sure of how many interpretations the OP was aware of and thought it needed a more generalised answer.
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        As others have mentioned, your definition of observer seems to have mislead you.



        Take the double slit experiment for instance. In this case, the observer which forces the wave function to collapse is the screen, not the person looking at the screen. The results would be the same without a person looking at the screen.






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          So how large does this screen need to be in order to count as an "observer"? What if you isolate the screen very well, would you still call it an observation? This approach has some problems if you think about it. There are similar problems with highly upvoted answers, to be fair...
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        It's an interesting question - with no answer

        Your asking about quantum effects in the pre-inflation universe, which could have been as small as $10^{-26}m$. We are talking about a very massive and extremely small system, which would be described by a theory that unifies general relativity and quantum mechanics. As of now, we just don't have this theory, so anything might have happened. At least quantum theory probably does not apply.






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          All of quantum mechanics theory suffers from being entirely devoid of real facts, being just a bunch of theories: the so-called interpretations.



          Schroedinger developed a perfectly valid and hugely successful equation, which accurately handles all the practical aspects of quantum mechanics. Then a whole lot of other people tried to theorise about why the equation was so successful.



          All the theories violently disagree with each other.



          Einstein never agreed with any of these theories, and was particularly scathing about the so-called Copenhagen interpretation, which he viewed as a load of rubbish. And he was a lot smarter than everyone else working in this field - then and now.



          So good luck with trying to second-guess Einstein.



          Schroedinger realised that at the heart of quantum mechanics there is a random factor, which can't be precisely quantified, but which must be handled statistically: that is, it can be assigned a probability. The implication of this is that what is being measured is not a single event, but many events: so many, that even given a certain amount of freedom (i.e. randomness) within the system being measured, when viewing a sufficiently large sample - presumably millions of events - it is possible to measure the average response of the system with an impressive degree of certainty.



          At the heart of statistics lies a grain of truth: that what to us, here at the macroscopic level, appears to be a single event (we call it, out of ignorance, a particle), is really many events. Statistics give us a picture of a quark, or an electron, or a neutrino: we assume, on no evidence, that it is a single spacetime event; but Schroedinger assures us that it is not, and that what we are seeing is merely the tip of the iceberg: an iceberg built out of the statistics of thousands, perhaps millions, of underlying events.



          Schroedinger's work is the only solid piece in the quagmire termed quantum mechanics. What one ought to do in this field is pay more attention to him, because the rest is all theory, and largely based purely on speculation.



          If a particle is not a statistical illusion, why does its behaviour conform so closely with Schroedinger's equation, an equation which requires one to accept - in its math - that the behaviour it is modelling is based on a series of statistical probabilities?



          Certainly one can understand why a particle might not be capable of being assigned a precise spacetime location, if what one is "observing" is not a single spacetime event but is, rather, the statistical outcome of a million underlying events.



          Even if (which seems unlikely) there are only a dozen underlying events, it is still a case of the "particle" having a "position" which is derived from averaging the positions of those 12 actual events. How much less precise does its position become if the "position" is averaged from the locations of a million actual events? Which of those million is its "real" location? Are they not all equally valid?



          When we measure a property, we are measuring the average of a large number of events, not, as we have previously supposed, a single event. Classical physics believed that a particle is a single spacetime event, whereas quantum mechanics is trying to tell us that a particle is the average value of many separate events.



          Quantum interpretations tell us nothing: we simply do not have the technology capable of magnifying the events at the sub-atomic level to see what is really occurring there. But Schroedinger has already given us the clearest road-map: we must expect to see a large number of individual events, which are to some degree chaotic, but which are predictable when treated in groups, using statistics, and which when so treated will obey the probabilities he sets down.



          His math gives the clearest possible explanation of what is occurring, and all the theorists do is ignore him. They persist in claiming that a particle is a single event, and thereby they mislead themselves into ignoring the statistical nature of Schroedinger's work.



          Accordingly, the answer to the o/p's question is that none of the so-called interpretations is valid, and that a true understanding of quantum events must wait on the development of techniques for magnifying the quantum level, such that we can study what is actually occurring there instead of theorising about what might be.






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            The interpretations of QM, such as the Copenhagen Interpretation are just interpretations. The actual behavior of the universe that QM predicts will occur is defined using just a wave function. However, there's a philosophical issue with this. We as humans don't see wave-function like behavior on a day to day basis. We see what we think of as concrete objects, governed by classical mechanics. The interpretations are ways that such a classical object, were it to exist, could interact with the quantum world in a way which is consistent with QM's predictions.



            No observer nor observation is needed for the world to evolve in the ways QM predicts. However, should any part of the universe begin to act in a way similar to a classical object (which they do), QM should predict behaviors which, in their limiting case, coincide with the interpretations.



            In the particular case of the Cophenhagen Interpretation, it does suggest that if a truly metaphysical being were to observe a quantum system in the way one observes a classical system, it would have to do something akin to waveform collapse. However, a more useful takeaway from it might be that if you have an entity that has properties that lead it to interact rather classically (such as your hand), you should expect the result of that entity interacting should be similar to waveform collapse.



            If you are 100% certain that you are a 100% classical being with 0% quantum behavior, then you will need an interpretation to explain how you interact with the world that is governed by quantum mechanics (read: everything). However, if you are merely 99.9999999% certain that you are a 99.999999% classical being with 0.000001% quantum behavior, then you could view yourself as part of the quantum system, but it may be very convenient to do predictions based on classical physics. Since your interactions typically involve trillions of interactions or more, classical physics does a very good job of making good predictions. Its only when the number of interactions gets small that we find the quirks of this classical physics approach start to show, and we have to think of things in QM terms.






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              13 Answers
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              13 Answers
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              “Observe” oftentimes causes a lot of confusion for this exact reason. It doesn’t actually refer to some conscious entity making an observation.



              Rather, think about how we actually make an observation about something. You have to interact with the system in some way. This can be through the exchange of photons, for example. This interaction is what constitutes an observation having taken place.



              Obviously, particles can undergo their fundamental interactions without a nearby sentient entity.



              For the sake of analogy, consider measuring air pressure in a tire. In the process of doing so, you let out some air — changing the tire pressure in the process.






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              • 8




                $begingroup$
                According to the Copenhagen interpretation, the wavefunction collapse is "subjective", it DOES depend on the act of observation, and doesn't have anything to do with physical and experimental imperfections like the exchange of photon. If you say that the wavefunction can collapse automatically, you are advocating "objective-collapse" interpretations, which are proposed by some people like Roger Penrose, but are not mainstream.
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 10 at 22:07






              • 59




                $begingroup$
                You have a misunderstanding. Collapse of the wave function in the Copenhagen interpretation is caused by a thermodynamically irreversible interaction with a classical environment. I agree — it does depend on the act of observation. Observation just doesn’t mean what you think it does.
                $endgroup$
                – Riley Scott Jacob
                Jan 10 at 22:10






              • 9




                $begingroup$
                @AliLavasani The point is that exchange of photon is not an experimental imperfection, but that observation without it is impossible, so that it is a fundamental part of the observation. I believe I have been told that the realization of 'you can't observe something without interacting with it and hence changing it' is what led Bohr to the Copenhagen interpretation but maybe I misremember. Others here are more knowledgeable on this history.
                $endgroup$
                – Vincent
                Jan 11 at 9:53






              • 7




                $begingroup$
                Aren't observations interactions only between a "classical system" and a quantum system? If we don't divide the Universe in different system, but describe it by a single state, there wouldn't be any observations.
                $endgroup$
                – jinawee
                Jan 11 at 15:17






              • 8




                $begingroup$
                The von Neumann interpretation requires consciousness, the Copenhagen interpretation only requires a measurement. But what constitutes such a measurement remains unclear and opinions on it are divided. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
                $endgroup$
                – Michal Paszkiewicz
                Jan 11 at 16:27
















              68












              $begingroup$

              “Observe” oftentimes causes a lot of confusion for this exact reason. It doesn’t actually refer to some conscious entity making an observation.



              Rather, think about how we actually make an observation about something. You have to interact with the system in some way. This can be through the exchange of photons, for example. This interaction is what constitutes an observation having taken place.



              Obviously, particles can undergo their fundamental interactions without a nearby sentient entity.



              For the sake of analogy, consider measuring air pressure in a tire. In the process of doing so, you let out some air — changing the tire pressure in the process.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$









              • 8




                $begingroup$
                According to the Copenhagen interpretation, the wavefunction collapse is "subjective", it DOES depend on the act of observation, and doesn't have anything to do with physical and experimental imperfections like the exchange of photon. If you say that the wavefunction can collapse automatically, you are advocating "objective-collapse" interpretations, which are proposed by some people like Roger Penrose, but are not mainstream.
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 10 at 22:07






              • 59




                $begingroup$
                You have a misunderstanding. Collapse of the wave function in the Copenhagen interpretation is caused by a thermodynamically irreversible interaction with a classical environment. I agree — it does depend on the act of observation. Observation just doesn’t mean what you think it does.
                $endgroup$
                – Riley Scott Jacob
                Jan 10 at 22:10






              • 9




                $begingroup$
                @AliLavasani The point is that exchange of photon is not an experimental imperfection, but that observation without it is impossible, so that it is a fundamental part of the observation. I believe I have been told that the realization of 'you can't observe something without interacting with it and hence changing it' is what led Bohr to the Copenhagen interpretation but maybe I misremember. Others here are more knowledgeable on this history.
                $endgroup$
                – Vincent
                Jan 11 at 9:53






              • 7




                $begingroup$
                Aren't observations interactions only between a "classical system" and a quantum system? If we don't divide the Universe in different system, but describe it by a single state, there wouldn't be any observations.
                $endgroup$
                – jinawee
                Jan 11 at 15:17






              • 8




                $begingroup$
                The von Neumann interpretation requires consciousness, the Copenhagen interpretation only requires a measurement. But what constitutes such a measurement remains unclear and opinions on it are divided. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
                $endgroup$
                – Michal Paszkiewicz
                Jan 11 at 16:27














              68












              68








              68





              $begingroup$

              “Observe” oftentimes causes a lot of confusion for this exact reason. It doesn’t actually refer to some conscious entity making an observation.



              Rather, think about how we actually make an observation about something. You have to interact with the system in some way. This can be through the exchange of photons, for example. This interaction is what constitutes an observation having taken place.



              Obviously, particles can undergo their fundamental interactions without a nearby sentient entity.



              For the sake of analogy, consider measuring air pressure in a tire. In the process of doing so, you let out some air — changing the tire pressure in the process.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              “Observe” oftentimes causes a lot of confusion for this exact reason. It doesn’t actually refer to some conscious entity making an observation.



              Rather, think about how we actually make an observation about something. You have to interact with the system in some way. This can be through the exchange of photons, for example. This interaction is what constitutes an observation having taken place.



              Obviously, particles can undergo their fundamental interactions without a nearby sentient entity.



              For the sake of analogy, consider measuring air pressure in a tire. In the process of doing so, you let out some air — changing the tire pressure in the process.







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered Jan 10 at 21:56









              Riley Scott JacobRiley Scott Jacob

              1,033110




              1,033110








              • 8




                $begingroup$
                According to the Copenhagen interpretation, the wavefunction collapse is "subjective", it DOES depend on the act of observation, and doesn't have anything to do with physical and experimental imperfections like the exchange of photon. If you say that the wavefunction can collapse automatically, you are advocating "objective-collapse" interpretations, which are proposed by some people like Roger Penrose, but are not mainstream.
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 10 at 22:07






              • 59




                $begingroup$
                You have a misunderstanding. Collapse of the wave function in the Copenhagen interpretation is caused by a thermodynamically irreversible interaction with a classical environment. I agree — it does depend on the act of observation. Observation just doesn’t mean what you think it does.
                $endgroup$
                – Riley Scott Jacob
                Jan 10 at 22:10






              • 9




                $begingroup$
                @AliLavasani The point is that exchange of photon is not an experimental imperfection, but that observation without it is impossible, so that it is a fundamental part of the observation. I believe I have been told that the realization of 'you can't observe something without interacting with it and hence changing it' is what led Bohr to the Copenhagen interpretation but maybe I misremember. Others here are more knowledgeable on this history.
                $endgroup$
                – Vincent
                Jan 11 at 9:53






              • 7




                $begingroup$
                Aren't observations interactions only between a "classical system" and a quantum system? If we don't divide the Universe in different system, but describe it by a single state, there wouldn't be any observations.
                $endgroup$
                – jinawee
                Jan 11 at 15:17






              • 8




                $begingroup$
                The von Neumann interpretation requires consciousness, the Copenhagen interpretation only requires a measurement. But what constitutes such a measurement remains unclear and opinions on it are divided. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
                $endgroup$
                – Michal Paszkiewicz
                Jan 11 at 16:27














              • 8




                $begingroup$
                According to the Copenhagen interpretation, the wavefunction collapse is "subjective", it DOES depend on the act of observation, and doesn't have anything to do with physical and experimental imperfections like the exchange of photon. If you say that the wavefunction can collapse automatically, you are advocating "objective-collapse" interpretations, which are proposed by some people like Roger Penrose, but are not mainstream.
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 10 at 22:07






              • 59




                $begingroup$
                You have a misunderstanding. Collapse of the wave function in the Copenhagen interpretation is caused by a thermodynamically irreversible interaction with a classical environment. I agree — it does depend on the act of observation. Observation just doesn’t mean what you think it does.
                $endgroup$
                – Riley Scott Jacob
                Jan 10 at 22:10






              • 9




                $begingroup$
                @AliLavasani The point is that exchange of photon is not an experimental imperfection, but that observation without it is impossible, so that it is a fundamental part of the observation. I believe I have been told that the realization of 'you can't observe something without interacting with it and hence changing it' is what led Bohr to the Copenhagen interpretation but maybe I misremember. Others here are more knowledgeable on this history.
                $endgroup$
                – Vincent
                Jan 11 at 9:53






              • 7




                $begingroup$
                Aren't observations interactions only between a "classical system" and a quantum system? If we don't divide the Universe in different system, but describe it by a single state, there wouldn't be any observations.
                $endgroup$
                – jinawee
                Jan 11 at 15:17






              • 8




                $begingroup$
                The von Neumann interpretation requires consciousness, the Copenhagen interpretation only requires a measurement. But what constitutes such a measurement remains unclear and opinions on it are divided. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
                $endgroup$
                – Michal Paszkiewicz
                Jan 11 at 16:27








              8




              8




              $begingroup$
              According to the Copenhagen interpretation, the wavefunction collapse is "subjective", it DOES depend on the act of observation, and doesn't have anything to do with physical and experimental imperfections like the exchange of photon. If you say that the wavefunction can collapse automatically, you are advocating "objective-collapse" interpretations, which are proposed by some people like Roger Penrose, but are not mainstream.
              $endgroup$
              – Ali Lavasani
              Jan 10 at 22:07




              $begingroup$
              According to the Copenhagen interpretation, the wavefunction collapse is "subjective", it DOES depend on the act of observation, and doesn't have anything to do with physical and experimental imperfections like the exchange of photon. If you say that the wavefunction can collapse automatically, you are advocating "objective-collapse" interpretations, which are proposed by some people like Roger Penrose, but are not mainstream.
              $endgroup$
              – Ali Lavasani
              Jan 10 at 22:07




              59




              59




              $begingroup$
              You have a misunderstanding. Collapse of the wave function in the Copenhagen interpretation is caused by a thermodynamically irreversible interaction with a classical environment. I agree — it does depend on the act of observation. Observation just doesn’t mean what you think it does.
              $endgroup$
              – Riley Scott Jacob
              Jan 10 at 22:10




              $begingroup$
              You have a misunderstanding. Collapse of the wave function in the Copenhagen interpretation is caused by a thermodynamically irreversible interaction with a classical environment. I agree — it does depend on the act of observation. Observation just doesn’t mean what you think it does.
              $endgroup$
              – Riley Scott Jacob
              Jan 10 at 22:10




              9




              9




              $begingroup$
              @AliLavasani The point is that exchange of photon is not an experimental imperfection, but that observation without it is impossible, so that it is a fundamental part of the observation. I believe I have been told that the realization of 'you can't observe something without interacting with it and hence changing it' is what led Bohr to the Copenhagen interpretation but maybe I misremember. Others here are more knowledgeable on this history.
              $endgroup$
              – Vincent
              Jan 11 at 9:53




              $begingroup$
              @AliLavasani The point is that exchange of photon is not an experimental imperfection, but that observation without it is impossible, so that it is a fundamental part of the observation. I believe I have been told that the realization of 'you can't observe something without interacting with it and hence changing it' is what led Bohr to the Copenhagen interpretation but maybe I misremember. Others here are more knowledgeable on this history.
              $endgroup$
              – Vincent
              Jan 11 at 9:53




              7




              7




              $begingroup$
              Aren't observations interactions only between a "classical system" and a quantum system? If we don't divide the Universe in different system, but describe it by a single state, there wouldn't be any observations.
              $endgroup$
              – jinawee
              Jan 11 at 15:17




              $begingroup$
              Aren't observations interactions only between a "classical system" and a quantum system? If we don't divide the Universe in different system, but describe it by a single state, there wouldn't be any observations.
              $endgroup$
              – jinawee
              Jan 11 at 15:17




              8




              8




              $begingroup$
              The von Neumann interpretation requires consciousness, the Copenhagen interpretation only requires a measurement. But what constitutes such a measurement remains unclear and opinions on it are divided. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
              $endgroup$
              – Michal Paszkiewicz
              Jan 11 at 16:27




              $begingroup$
              The von Neumann interpretation requires consciousness, the Copenhagen interpretation only requires a measurement. But what constitutes such a measurement remains unclear and opinions on it are divided. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
              $endgroup$
              – Michal Paszkiewicz
              Jan 11 at 16:27











              31












              $begingroup$

              The Copenhagen interpretation isn't an essential part of quantum mechanics. It isn't required in order to make physical processes happen. It's just a way of describing what seems to happen when an observer makes a measurement. It's not even the only way of describing what it seems like to the observer.




              However, according to the Copenhagen interpretation, any random quantum phenomenon only occurs when the system is observed; [...]




              If you don't use the Copenhagen interpretation, quantum mechanics still works fine. In your example of the early universe, all the quantum-mechanical processes work in the same way. E.g., a hydrogen atom in an $n=3$ state will radiate light, and at a later time it will be in a superposition of $n=2$ and $n=1$. No randomness, just a superposition.




              [...] before observation, the quantum state is symmetric.




              I'm not sure what you mean by symmetric here. This seems like a nonstandard description.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$









              • 7




                $begingroup$
                You say there has been a "superposition" of all possible outcomes in the inflation, so what has destroyed the superposition? In Copenhagen, ONLY observation can collapse the superposition. If you believe it has automatically collapsed, you are defending "objective collapse" interpretations, and another option is that the universe is still in superposition (the many worlds interpretation). Either way you are implying one of these two kinds of interpretations, aren't you?
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 0:20






              • 5




                $begingroup$
                @Wolphram Yes, any interpretation other that Copenhagen has no problem. Copenhagen shouldn't also fail, so my question is how the observation can have been done at the beginning of the universe. I don't know, maybe observation is done NOW when we look at the universe!!
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 1:34






              • 7




                $begingroup$
                @Wolphram Notice that Copenhagen perfectly works. Interpretations like Bohmian mechanics have more serious problems (nonlocality, or retrocausality in transactional interpretation, etc).
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 1:46








              • 4




                $begingroup$
                @AliLavasani how about the good old many-worlds interpretation? No wavefunction collapse, no issue choosing when it happens. The only thing that you lose is the notion that only the universe that you see is what exists. It's not that far-fetched either. An electron created by the collision of two gamma photons can only "see" a positron that flies away in the exact opposite direction, which is just a layman's way of saying that a superposition of states evolves the same as if you evolve each state separately and only then sum up the states.
                $endgroup$
                – John Dvorak
                Jan 11 at 15:14






              • 4




                $begingroup$
                @John In many worlds, you have the problem that you cannot interpret probability for your "worlds". For example, suppose the probability of quantum event A is 0.7, and the probability of quantum event B is 0.3. What does this mean? Does it mean you have 7 universes in which A happens and 3 ones in which B happens, or what?
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 15:33
















              31












              $begingroup$

              The Copenhagen interpretation isn't an essential part of quantum mechanics. It isn't required in order to make physical processes happen. It's just a way of describing what seems to happen when an observer makes a measurement. It's not even the only way of describing what it seems like to the observer.




              However, according to the Copenhagen interpretation, any random quantum phenomenon only occurs when the system is observed; [...]




              If you don't use the Copenhagen interpretation, quantum mechanics still works fine. In your example of the early universe, all the quantum-mechanical processes work in the same way. E.g., a hydrogen atom in an $n=3$ state will radiate light, and at a later time it will be in a superposition of $n=2$ and $n=1$. No randomness, just a superposition.




              [...] before observation, the quantum state is symmetric.




              I'm not sure what you mean by symmetric here. This seems like a nonstandard description.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$









              • 7




                $begingroup$
                You say there has been a "superposition" of all possible outcomes in the inflation, so what has destroyed the superposition? In Copenhagen, ONLY observation can collapse the superposition. If you believe it has automatically collapsed, you are defending "objective collapse" interpretations, and another option is that the universe is still in superposition (the many worlds interpretation). Either way you are implying one of these two kinds of interpretations, aren't you?
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 0:20






              • 5




                $begingroup$
                @Wolphram Yes, any interpretation other that Copenhagen has no problem. Copenhagen shouldn't also fail, so my question is how the observation can have been done at the beginning of the universe. I don't know, maybe observation is done NOW when we look at the universe!!
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 1:34






              • 7




                $begingroup$
                @Wolphram Notice that Copenhagen perfectly works. Interpretations like Bohmian mechanics have more serious problems (nonlocality, or retrocausality in transactional interpretation, etc).
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 1:46








              • 4




                $begingroup$
                @AliLavasani how about the good old many-worlds interpretation? No wavefunction collapse, no issue choosing when it happens. The only thing that you lose is the notion that only the universe that you see is what exists. It's not that far-fetched either. An electron created by the collision of two gamma photons can only "see" a positron that flies away in the exact opposite direction, which is just a layman's way of saying that a superposition of states evolves the same as if you evolve each state separately and only then sum up the states.
                $endgroup$
                – John Dvorak
                Jan 11 at 15:14






              • 4




                $begingroup$
                @John In many worlds, you have the problem that you cannot interpret probability for your "worlds". For example, suppose the probability of quantum event A is 0.7, and the probability of quantum event B is 0.3. What does this mean? Does it mean you have 7 universes in which A happens and 3 ones in which B happens, or what?
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 15:33














              31












              31








              31





              $begingroup$

              The Copenhagen interpretation isn't an essential part of quantum mechanics. It isn't required in order to make physical processes happen. It's just a way of describing what seems to happen when an observer makes a measurement. It's not even the only way of describing what it seems like to the observer.




              However, according to the Copenhagen interpretation, any random quantum phenomenon only occurs when the system is observed; [...]




              If you don't use the Copenhagen interpretation, quantum mechanics still works fine. In your example of the early universe, all the quantum-mechanical processes work in the same way. E.g., a hydrogen atom in an $n=3$ state will radiate light, and at a later time it will be in a superposition of $n=2$ and $n=1$. No randomness, just a superposition.




              [...] before observation, the quantum state is symmetric.




              I'm not sure what you mean by symmetric here. This seems like a nonstandard description.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              The Copenhagen interpretation isn't an essential part of quantum mechanics. It isn't required in order to make physical processes happen. It's just a way of describing what seems to happen when an observer makes a measurement. It's not even the only way of describing what it seems like to the observer.




              However, according to the Copenhagen interpretation, any random quantum phenomenon only occurs when the system is observed; [...]




              If you don't use the Copenhagen interpretation, quantum mechanics still works fine. In your example of the early universe, all the quantum-mechanical processes work in the same way. E.g., a hydrogen atom in an $n=3$ state will radiate light, and at a later time it will be in a superposition of $n=2$ and $n=1$. No randomness, just a superposition.




              [...] before observation, the quantum state is symmetric.




              I'm not sure what you mean by symmetric here. This seems like a nonstandard description.







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered Jan 10 at 23:35









              Ben CrowellBen Crowell

              50.1k5155295




              50.1k5155295








              • 7




                $begingroup$
                You say there has been a "superposition" of all possible outcomes in the inflation, so what has destroyed the superposition? In Copenhagen, ONLY observation can collapse the superposition. If you believe it has automatically collapsed, you are defending "objective collapse" interpretations, and another option is that the universe is still in superposition (the many worlds interpretation). Either way you are implying one of these two kinds of interpretations, aren't you?
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 0:20






              • 5




                $begingroup$
                @Wolphram Yes, any interpretation other that Copenhagen has no problem. Copenhagen shouldn't also fail, so my question is how the observation can have been done at the beginning of the universe. I don't know, maybe observation is done NOW when we look at the universe!!
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 1:34






              • 7




                $begingroup$
                @Wolphram Notice that Copenhagen perfectly works. Interpretations like Bohmian mechanics have more serious problems (nonlocality, or retrocausality in transactional interpretation, etc).
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 1:46








              • 4




                $begingroup$
                @AliLavasani how about the good old many-worlds interpretation? No wavefunction collapse, no issue choosing when it happens. The only thing that you lose is the notion that only the universe that you see is what exists. It's not that far-fetched either. An electron created by the collision of two gamma photons can only "see" a positron that flies away in the exact opposite direction, which is just a layman's way of saying that a superposition of states evolves the same as if you evolve each state separately and only then sum up the states.
                $endgroup$
                – John Dvorak
                Jan 11 at 15:14






              • 4




                $begingroup$
                @John In many worlds, you have the problem that you cannot interpret probability for your "worlds". For example, suppose the probability of quantum event A is 0.7, and the probability of quantum event B is 0.3. What does this mean? Does it mean you have 7 universes in which A happens and 3 ones in which B happens, or what?
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 15:33














              • 7




                $begingroup$
                You say there has been a "superposition" of all possible outcomes in the inflation, so what has destroyed the superposition? In Copenhagen, ONLY observation can collapse the superposition. If you believe it has automatically collapsed, you are defending "objective collapse" interpretations, and another option is that the universe is still in superposition (the many worlds interpretation). Either way you are implying one of these two kinds of interpretations, aren't you?
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 0:20






              • 5




                $begingroup$
                @Wolphram Yes, any interpretation other that Copenhagen has no problem. Copenhagen shouldn't also fail, so my question is how the observation can have been done at the beginning of the universe. I don't know, maybe observation is done NOW when we look at the universe!!
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 1:34






              • 7




                $begingroup$
                @Wolphram Notice that Copenhagen perfectly works. Interpretations like Bohmian mechanics have more serious problems (nonlocality, or retrocausality in transactional interpretation, etc).
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 1:46








              • 4




                $begingroup$
                @AliLavasani how about the good old many-worlds interpretation? No wavefunction collapse, no issue choosing when it happens. The only thing that you lose is the notion that only the universe that you see is what exists. It's not that far-fetched either. An electron created by the collision of two gamma photons can only "see" a positron that flies away in the exact opposite direction, which is just a layman's way of saying that a superposition of states evolves the same as if you evolve each state separately and only then sum up the states.
                $endgroup$
                – John Dvorak
                Jan 11 at 15:14






              • 4




                $begingroup$
                @John In many worlds, you have the problem that you cannot interpret probability for your "worlds". For example, suppose the probability of quantum event A is 0.7, and the probability of quantum event B is 0.3. What does this mean? Does it mean you have 7 universes in which A happens and 3 ones in which B happens, or what?
                $endgroup$
                – Ali Lavasani
                Jan 11 at 15:33








              7




              7




              $begingroup$
              You say there has been a "superposition" of all possible outcomes in the inflation, so what has destroyed the superposition? In Copenhagen, ONLY observation can collapse the superposition. If you believe it has automatically collapsed, you are defending "objective collapse" interpretations, and another option is that the universe is still in superposition (the many worlds interpretation). Either way you are implying one of these two kinds of interpretations, aren't you?
              $endgroup$
              – Ali Lavasani
              Jan 11 at 0:20




              $begingroup$
              You say there has been a "superposition" of all possible outcomes in the inflation, so what has destroyed the superposition? In Copenhagen, ONLY observation can collapse the superposition. If you believe it has automatically collapsed, you are defending "objective collapse" interpretations, and another option is that the universe is still in superposition (the many worlds interpretation). Either way you are implying one of these two kinds of interpretations, aren't you?
              $endgroup$
              – Ali Lavasani
              Jan 11 at 0:20




              5




              5




              $begingroup$
              @Wolphram Yes, any interpretation other that Copenhagen has no problem. Copenhagen shouldn't also fail, so my question is how the observation can have been done at the beginning of the universe. I don't know, maybe observation is done NOW when we look at the universe!!
              $endgroup$
              – Ali Lavasani
              Jan 11 at 1:34




              $begingroup$
              @Wolphram Yes, any interpretation other that Copenhagen has no problem. Copenhagen shouldn't also fail, so my question is how the observation can have been done at the beginning of the universe. I don't know, maybe observation is done NOW when we look at the universe!!
              $endgroup$
              – Ali Lavasani
              Jan 11 at 1:34




              7




              7




              $begingroup$
              @Wolphram Notice that Copenhagen perfectly works. Interpretations like Bohmian mechanics have more serious problems (nonlocality, or retrocausality in transactional interpretation, etc).
              $endgroup$
              – Ali Lavasani
              Jan 11 at 1:46






              $begingroup$
              @Wolphram Notice that Copenhagen perfectly works. Interpretations like Bohmian mechanics have more serious problems (nonlocality, or retrocausality in transactional interpretation, etc).
              $endgroup$
              – Ali Lavasani
              Jan 11 at 1:46






              4




              4




              $begingroup$
              @AliLavasani how about the good old many-worlds interpretation? No wavefunction collapse, no issue choosing when it happens. The only thing that you lose is the notion that only the universe that you see is what exists. It's not that far-fetched either. An electron created by the collision of two gamma photons can only "see" a positron that flies away in the exact opposite direction, which is just a layman's way of saying that a superposition of states evolves the same as if you evolve each state separately and only then sum up the states.
              $endgroup$
              – John Dvorak
              Jan 11 at 15:14




              $begingroup$
              @AliLavasani how about the good old many-worlds interpretation? No wavefunction collapse, no issue choosing when it happens. The only thing that you lose is the notion that only the universe that you see is what exists. It's not that far-fetched either. An electron created by the collision of two gamma photons can only "see" a positron that flies away in the exact opposite direction, which is just a layman's way of saying that a superposition of states evolves the same as if you evolve each state separately and only then sum up the states.
              $endgroup$
              – John Dvorak
              Jan 11 at 15:14




              4




              4




              $begingroup$
              @John In many worlds, you have the problem that you cannot interpret probability for your "worlds". For example, suppose the probability of quantum event A is 0.7, and the probability of quantum event B is 0.3. What does this mean? Does it mean you have 7 universes in which A happens and 3 ones in which B happens, or what?
              $endgroup$
              – Ali Lavasani
              Jan 11 at 15:33




              $begingroup$
              @John In many worlds, you have the problem that you cannot interpret probability for your "worlds". For example, suppose the probability of quantum event A is 0.7, and the probability of quantum event B is 0.3. What does this mean? Does it mean you have 7 universes in which A happens and 3 ones in which B happens, or what?
              $endgroup$
              – Ali Lavasani
              Jan 11 at 15:33











              17












              $begingroup$

              "Observation" is not about a human actually viewing and consciously perceiving a system. If one state is capable of affecting another state, then the latter is said to be measuring, or observing, the former. The reason conscious observation also constitutes measurement is simply because interaction with the environment is fundamentally necessary for our eyes to be able to perceive an event.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                17












                $begingroup$

                "Observation" is not about a human actually viewing and consciously perceiving a system. If one state is capable of affecting another state, then the latter is said to be measuring, or observing, the former. The reason conscious observation also constitutes measurement is simply because interaction with the environment is fundamentally necessary for our eyes to be able to perceive an event.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  17












                  17








                  17





                  $begingroup$

                  "Observation" is not about a human actually viewing and consciously perceiving a system. If one state is capable of affecting another state, then the latter is said to be measuring, or observing, the former. The reason conscious observation also constitutes measurement is simply because interaction with the environment is fundamentally necessary for our eyes to be able to perceive an event.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  "Observation" is not about a human actually viewing and consciously perceiving a system. If one state is capable of affecting another state, then the latter is said to be measuring, or observing, the former. The reason conscious observation also constitutes measurement is simply because interaction with the environment is fundamentally necessary for our eyes to be able to perceive an event.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Jan 11 at 4:08









                  forestforest

                  2888




                  2888























                      11












                      $begingroup$

                      The Copenhagen interpretation is nothing but an impediment to understanding quantum mechanics. There is no such thing as "wave function collapse" within the system described by QM, nor in any falsifiable physical sense outside of the theory. At best it's an artificial glue for sticking quantum and classical models together; less flatteringly it's a mental crutch for people who don't want to accept that the best model of physical reality we can hope for describes not the evolution of a single deterministic state, but rather the deterministic evolution of a probability model of possible observed states.



                      Ultimately what's attributed to "wave function collapse" from an act of observation is just conditional probabilities, or if you want to go even more basic, correlations between random variables. I like to explain this via analogies with other applications of conditional probability, and usually end up picking something morbid like cause of death. As a random member of a general population, you have some $X$ percent chance of dying of a particular disease. If you get DNA tests done, you might find out that you instead have a $Y$ percent chance of dying from it, where $Y$ is greater or less than $X$. No physical change took place when you had the test done to change the likelihood of dying from that particular disease. Rather, you're just able to make better predictions based on correlations.



                      Now, neither QM nor any other physical theory is going to tell us much about what fine-grained observations could have been made in the very early universe, because the correlations to anything we can observe are going to be too small. But that doesn't mean the probability model didn't evolve the same way then as it does now, with all the consequences that entails.






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$









                      • 7




                        $begingroup$
                        It is true that observing a particle's position can be thought of as just acquiring information about its position. However, unlike the case with the disease, you can't take this to mean that the particle really had a definite, though unknown position the entire time -- such a hidden variable theory just doesn't work. That's the real subtlety of quantum mechanics, the puzzle that led people to adopt the Copenhagen interpretation in the first place. If you simply ignore it, you're not really talking about quantum mechanics at all.
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 11 at 17:58






                      • 4




                        $begingroup$
                        Instead, you're just repeating what you already know about classical probability and hoping it all transfers effortlessly to quantum mechanics. The problem is, experiment tells us it doesn't. Quantum mechanics and classical mechanics are different things.
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 11 at 18:00






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @R.. In most QM classes you're told that after a measurement associated to an operator "A" which leads to result "a", the state "collapses" to $|arangle$. I'd like to see same formulation with classical correlations.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jinawee
                        Jan 11 at 18:44








                      • 3




                        $begingroup$
                        @knzhou: I didn't assert that there is any possible hidden variable theory; quite the opposite, that QM only describes the evolution of a probability model, not of some "real state" among the elements of the probability space. Everything I've said above is roughly equivalent to how you view QM through the MWI, but without its ontological baggage which is problematic just like the CI, but for different reasons.
                        $endgroup$
                        – R..
                        Jan 11 at 21:30






                      • 2




                        $begingroup$
                        @Menno: Nothing requires "probabilities cancelling each other out". The fact that QM describes the evolution of a probability model (determined by the wave function) is not at all controversial. Interference is one consequence of the rules for how the probability model evolves. I'm not clear what you're actually objecting to.
                        $endgroup$
                        – R..
                        Jan 13 at 2:04


















                      11












                      $begingroup$

                      The Copenhagen interpretation is nothing but an impediment to understanding quantum mechanics. There is no such thing as "wave function collapse" within the system described by QM, nor in any falsifiable physical sense outside of the theory. At best it's an artificial glue for sticking quantum and classical models together; less flatteringly it's a mental crutch for people who don't want to accept that the best model of physical reality we can hope for describes not the evolution of a single deterministic state, but rather the deterministic evolution of a probability model of possible observed states.



                      Ultimately what's attributed to "wave function collapse" from an act of observation is just conditional probabilities, or if you want to go even more basic, correlations between random variables. I like to explain this via analogies with other applications of conditional probability, and usually end up picking something morbid like cause of death. As a random member of a general population, you have some $X$ percent chance of dying of a particular disease. If you get DNA tests done, you might find out that you instead have a $Y$ percent chance of dying from it, where $Y$ is greater or less than $X$. No physical change took place when you had the test done to change the likelihood of dying from that particular disease. Rather, you're just able to make better predictions based on correlations.



                      Now, neither QM nor any other physical theory is going to tell us much about what fine-grained observations could have been made in the very early universe, because the correlations to anything we can observe are going to be too small. But that doesn't mean the probability model didn't evolve the same way then as it does now, with all the consequences that entails.






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$









                      • 7




                        $begingroup$
                        It is true that observing a particle's position can be thought of as just acquiring information about its position. However, unlike the case with the disease, you can't take this to mean that the particle really had a definite, though unknown position the entire time -- such a hidden variable theory just doesn't work. That's the real subtlety of quantum mechanics, the puzzle that led people to adopt the Copenhagen interpretation in the first place. If you simply ignore it, you're not really talking about quantum mechanics at all.
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 11 at 17:58






                      • 4




                        $begingroup$
                        Instead, you're just repeating what you already know about classical probability and hoping it all transfers effortlessly to quantum mechanics. The problem is, experiment tells us it doesn't. Quantum mechanics and classical mechanics are different things.
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 11 at 18:00






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @R.. In most QM classes you're told that after a measurement associated to an operator "A" which leads to result "a", the state "collapses" to $|arangle$. I'd like to see same formulation with classical correlations.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jinawee
                        Jan 11 at 18:44








                      • 3




                        $begingroup$
                        @knzhou: I didn't assert that there is any possible hidden variable theory; quite the opposite, that QM only describes the evolution of a probability model, not of some "real state" among the elements of the probability space. Everything I've said above is roughly equivalent to how you view QM through the MWI, but without its ontological baggage which is problematic just like the CI, but for different reasons.
                        $endgroup$
                        – R..
                        Jan 11 at 21:30






                      • 2




                        $begingroup$
                        @Menno: Nothing requires "probabilities cancelling each other out". The fact that QM describes the evolution of a probability model (determined by the wave function) is not at all controversial. Interference is one consequence of the rules for how the probability model evolves. I'm not clear what you're actually objecting to.
                        $endgroup$
                        – R..
                        Jan 13 at 2:04
















                      11












                      11








                      11





                      $begingroup$

                      The Copenhagen interpretation is nothing but an impediment to understanding quantum mechanics. There is no such thing as "wave function collapse" within the system described by QM, nor in any falsifiable physical sense outside of the theory. At best it's an artificial glue for sticking quantum and classical models together; less flatteringly it's a mental crutch for people who don't want to accept that the best model of physical reality we can hope for describes not the evolution of a single deterministic state, but rather the deterministic evolution of a probability model of possible observed states.



                      Ultimately what's attributed to "wave function collapse" from an act of observation is just conditional probabilities, or if you want to go even more basic, correlations between random variables. I like to explain this via analogies with other applications of conditional probability, and usually end up picking something morbid like cause of death. As a random member of a general population, you have some $X$ percent chance of dying of a particular disease. If you get DNA tests done, you might find out that you instead have a $Y$ percent chance of dying from it, where $Y$ is greater or less than $X$. No physical change took place when you had the test done to change the likelihood of dying from that particular disease. Rather, you're just able to make better predictions based on correlations.



                      Now, neither QM nor any other physical theory is going to tell us much about what fine-grained observations could have been made in the very early universe, because the correlations to anything we can observe are going to be too small. But that doesn't mean the probability model didn't evolve the same way then as it does now, with all the consequences that entails.






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



                      The Copenhagen interpretation is nothing but an impediment to understanding quantum mechanics. There is no such thing as "wave function collapse" within the system described by QM, nor in any falsifiable physical sense outside of the theory. At best it's an artificial glue for sticking quantum and classical models together; less flatteringly it's a mental crutch for people who don't want to accept that the best model of physical reality we can hope for describes not the evolution of a single deterministic state, but rather the deterministic evolution of a probability model of possible observed states.



                      Ultimately what's attributed to "wave function collapse" from an act of observation is just conditional probabilities, or if you want to go even more basic, correlations between random variables. I like to explain this via analogies with other applications of conditional probability, and usually end up picking something morbid like cause of death. As a random member of a general population, you have some $X$ percent chance of dying of a particular disease. If you get DNA tests done, you might find out that you instead have a $Y$ percent chance of dying from it, where $Y$ is greater or less than $X$. No physical change took place when you had the test done to change the likelihood of dying from that particular disease. Rather, you're just able to make better predictions based on correlations.



                      Now, neither QM nor any other physical theory is going to tell us much about what fine-grained observations could have been made in the very early universe, because the correlations to anything we can observe are going to be too small. But that doesn't mean the probability model didn't evolve the same way then as it does now, with all the consequences that entails.







                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      answered Jan 11 at 7:42









                      R..R..

                      27418




                      27418








                      • 7




                        $begingroup$
                        It is true that observing a particle's position can be thought of as just acquiring information about its position. However, unlike the case with the disease, you can't take this to mean that the particle really had a definite, though unknown position the entire time -- such a hidden variable theory just doesn't work. That's the real subtlety of quantum mechanics, the puzzle that led people to adopt the Copenhagen interpretation in the first place. If you simply ignore it, you're not really talking about quantum mechanics at all.
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 11 at 17:58






                      • 4




                        $begingroup$
                        Instead, you're just repeating what you already know about classical probability and hoping it all transfers effortlessly to quantum mechanics. The problem is, experiment tells us it doesn't. Quantum mechanics and classical mechanics are different things.
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 11 at 18:00






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @R.. In most QM classes you're told that after a measurement associated to an operator "A" which leads to result "a", the state "collapses" to $|arangle$. I'd like to see same formulation with classical correlations.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jinawee
                        Jan 11 at 18:44








                      • 3




                        $begingroup$
                        @knzhou: I didn't assert that there is any possible hidden variable theory; quite the opposite, that QM only describes the evolution of a probability model, not of some "real state" among the elements of the probability space. Everything I've said above is roughly equivalent to how you view QM through the MWI, but without its ontological baggage which is problematic just like the CI, but for different reasons.
                        $endgroup$
                        – R..
                        Jan 11 at 21:30






                      • 2




                        $begingroup$
                        @Menno: Nothing requires "probabilities cancelling each other out". The fact that QM describes the evolution of a probability model (determined by the wave function) is not at all controversial. Interference is one consequence of the rules for how the probability model evolves. I'm not clear what you're actually objecting to.
                        $endgroup$
                        – R..
                        Jan 13 at 2:04
















                      • 7




                        $begingroup$
                        It is true that observing a particle's position can be thought of as just acquiring information about its position. However, unlike the case with the disease, you can't take this to mean that the particle really had a definite, though unknown position the entire time -- such a hidden variable theory just doesn't work. That's the real subtlety of quantum mechanics, the puzzle that led people to adopt the Copenhagen interpretation in the first place. If you simply ignore it, you're not really talking about quantum mechanics at all.
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 11 at 17:58






                      • 4




                        $begingroup$
                        Instead, you're just repeating what you already know about classical probability and hoping it all transfers effortlessly to quantum mechanics. The problem is, experiment tells us it doesn't. Quantum mechanics and classical mechanics are different things.
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 11 at 18:00






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @R.. In most QM classes you're told that after a measurement associated to an operator "A" which leads to result "a", the state "collapses" to $|arangle$. I'd like to see same formulation with classical correlations.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jinawee
                        Jan 11 at 18:44








                      • 3




                        $begingroup$
                        @knzhou: I didn't assert that there is any possible hidden variable theory; quite the opposite, that QM only describes the evolution of a probability model, not of some "real state" among the elements of the probability space. Everything I've said above is roughly equivalent to how you view QM through the MWI, but without its ontological baggage which is problematic just like the CI, but for different reasons.
                        $endgroup$
                        – R..
                        Jan 11 at 21:30






                      • 2




                        $begingroup$
                        @Menno: Nothing requires "probabilities cancelling each other out". The fact that QM describes the evolution of a probability model (determined by the wave function) is not at all controversial. Interference is one consequence of the rules for how the probability model evolves. I'm not clear what you're actually objecting to.
                        $endgroup$
                        – R..
                        Jan 13 at 2:04










                      7




                      7




                      $begingroup$
                      It is true that observing a particle's position can be thought of as just acquiring information about its position. However, unlike the case with the disease, you can't take this to mean that the particle really had a definite, though unknown position the entire time -- such a hidden variable theory just doesn't work. That's the real subtlety of quantum mechanics, the puzzle that led people to adopt the Copenhagen interpretation in the first place. If you simply ignore it, you're not really talking about quantum mechanics at all.
                      $endgroup$
                      – knzhou
                      Jan 11 at 17:58




                      $begingroup$
                      It is true that observing a particle's position can be thought of as just acquiring information about its position. However, unlike the case with the disease, you can't take this to mean that the particle really had a definite, though unknown position the entire time -- such a hidden variable theory just doesn't work. That's the real subtlety of quantum mechanics, the puzzle that led people to adopt the Copenhagen interpretation in the first place. If you simply ignore it, you're not really talking about quantum mechanics at all.
                      $endgroup$
                      – knzhou
                      Jan 11 at 17:58




                      4




                      4




                      $begingroup$
                      Instead, you're just repeating what you already know about classical probability and hoping it all transfers effortlessly to quantum mechanics. The problem is, experiment tells us it doesn't. Quantum mechanics and classical mechanics are different things.
                      $endgroup$
                      – knzhou
                      Jan 11 at 18:00




                      $begingroup$
                      Instead, you're just repeating what you already know about classical probability and hoping it all transfers effortlessly to quantum mechanics. The problem is, experiment tells us it doesn't. Quantum mechanics and classical mechanics are different things.
                      $endgroup$
                      – knzhou
                      Jan 11 at 18:00




                      1




                      1




                      $begingroup$
                      @R.. In most QM classes you're told that after a measurement associated to an operator "A" which leads to result "a", the state "collapses" to $|arangle$. I'd like to see same formulation with classical correlations.
                      $endgroup$
                      – jinawee
                      Jan 11 at 18:44






                      $begingroup$
                      @R.. In most QM classes you're told that after a measurement associated to an operator "A" which leads to result "a", the state "collapses" to $|arangle$. I'd like to see same formulation with classical correlations.
                      $endgroup$
                      – jinawee
                      Jan 11 at 18:44






                      3




                      3




                      $begingroup$
                      @knzhou: I didn't assert that there is any possible hidden variable theory; quite the opposite, that QM only describes the evolution of a probability model, not of some "real state" among the elements of the probability space. Everything I've said above is roughly equivalent to how you view QM through the MWI, but without its ontological baggage which is problematic just like the CI, but for different reasons.
                      $endgroup$
                      – R..
                      Jan 11 at 21:30




                      $begingroup$
                      @knzhou: I didn't assert that there is any possible hidden variable theory; quite the opposite, that QM only describes the evolution of a probability model, not of some "real state" among the elements of the probability space. Everything I've said above is roughly equivalent to how you view QM through the MWI, but without its ontological baggage which is problematic just like the CI, but for different reasons.
                      $endgroup$
                      – R..
                      Jan 11 at 21:30




                      2




                      2




                      $begingroup$
                      @Menno: Nothing requires "probabilities cancelling each other out". The fact that QM describes the evolution of a probability model (determined by the wave function) is not at all controversial. Interference is one consequence of the rules for how the probability model evolves. I'm not clear what you're actually objecting to.
                      $endgroup$
                      – R..
                      Jan 13 at 2:04






                      $begingroup$
                      @Menno: Nothing requires "probabilities cancelling each other out". The fact that QM describes the evolution of a probability model (determined by the wave function) is not at all controversial. Interference is one consequence of the rules for how the probability model evolves. I'm not clear what you're actually objecting to.
                      $endgroup$
                      – R..
                      Jan 13 at 2:04













                      7












                      $begingroup$

                      If the Copenhagen interpretation is correct(unknown), and if it requires conscious observers(unknown), our observations of the universe could retroactively collapse the superpositions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed-choice_quantum_eraser .






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$













                      • $begingroup$
                        This seems to mesh with some work by Hawking I was reading a while back that suggested that the present influences the early parameters of the universe.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael
                        Jan 11 at 19:34
















                      7












                      $begingroup$

                      If the Copenhagen interpretation is correct(unknown), and if it requires conscious observers(unknown), our observations of the universe could retroactively collapse the superpositions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed-choice_quantum_eraser .






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$













                      • $begingroup$
                        This seems to mesh with some work by Hawking I was reading a while back that suggested that the present influences the early parameters of the universe.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael
                        Jan 11 at 19:34














                      7












                      7








                      7





                      $begingroup$

                      If the Copenhagen interpretation is correct(unknown), and if it requires conscious observers(unknown), our observations of the universe could retroactively collapse the superpositions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed-choice_quantum_eraser .






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



                      If the Copenhagen interpretation is correct(unknown), and if it requires conscious observers(unknown), our observations of the universe could retroactively collapse the superpositions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed-choice_quantum_eraser .







                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      answered Jan 11 at 16:57









                      qazwsxqazwsx

                      1711




                      1711












                      • $begingroup$
                        This seems to mesh with some work by Hawking I was reading a while back that suggested that the present influences the early parameters of the universe.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael
                        Jan 11 at 19:34


















                      • $begingroup$
                        This seems to mesh with some work by Hawking I was reading a while back that suggested that the present influences the early parameters of the universe.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael
                        Jan 11 at 19:34
















                      $begingroup$
                      This seems to mesh with some work by Hawking I was reading a while back that suggested that the present influences the early parameters of the universe.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Michael
                      Jan 11 at 19:34




                      $begingroup$
                      This seems to mesh with some work by Hawking I was reading a while back that suggested that the present influences the early parameters of the universe.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Michael
                      Jan 11 at 19:34











                      7












                      $begingroup$

                      If only an act of observation by a conscious (whatever it means) creature could cause a wavefunction to collapse, then it would be impossible in the first place for conscious creatures to develop in the course of history because the entire Universe would be in a continuously developing superposition of states without any collapse taking place (collapse is a necessary condition for conscious creatures to develop). Which means that conscious creatures making an observation aren't the cause for the collapse (and nor can conscious creatures now cause the collapse at the beginning of the Universe retroactively because conscious creatures couldn't have developed if the collapse is caused by them). So when inflation took place, no conscious creatures were needed to make a wavefunction collapse, and as you stated in your question, obviously there were no conscious creatures (if the collapse is caused by "a thermodynamically irreversible interaction with a classical environment" then by the same token, neither a classical environment will be able to develop).



                      This means, for example, that the pattern of lines (resulting from the collapse of a whole lot of wavefunctions corresponding to photons) appearing on the screen in the double slit experiment will develop independently of some conscious creature observing the setup.



                      This doesn't necessarily mean though that an observer(creature)-independent interpretation is one that postulates a pilot wave (or hidden variables). The "inherently probabilistic" interpretation will do as well. Both can make a wavefunction collapse without an observer. I think which interpretation corresponds to reality will remain unknown (unless someone comes up with an experiment to make a decision which I find hard to imagine) and be a question of "taste". Einstein was an advocate for a theory that underlies the apparent probabilistic behavior of matter ("Gott würfelt nicht", that is, "God doesn't play dice"), as a theory of hidden variables does (somewhat like the molecules surrounding a Brownian particle make the particle move in an apparent random way). But many others (like Bohr in the "famous" Bohr-Einstein debate) take an opposite stand.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$


















                        7












                        $begingroup$

                        If only an act of observation by a conscious (whatever it means) creature could cause a wavefunction to collapse, then it would be impossible in the first place for conscious creatures to develop in the course of history because the entire Universe would be in a continuously developing superposition of states without any collapse taking place (collapse is a necessary condition for conscious creatures to develop). Which means that conscious creatures making an observation aren't the cause for the collapse (and nor can conscious creatures now cause the collapse at the beginning of the Universe retroactively because conscious creatures couldn't have developed if the collapse is caused by them). So when inflation took place, no conscious creatures were needed to make a wavefunction collapse, and as you stated in your question, obviously there were no conscious creatures (if the collapse is caused by "a thermodynamically irreversible interaction with a classical environment" then by the same token, neither a classical environment will be able to develop).



                        This means, for example, that the pattern of lines (resulting from the collapse of a whole lot of wavefunctions corresponding to photons) appearing on the screen in the double slit experiment will develop independently of some conscious creature observing the setup.



                        This doesn't necessarily mean though that an observer(creature)-independent interpretation is one that postulates a pilot wave (or hidden variables). The "inherently probabilistic" interpretation will do as well. Both can make a wavefunction collapse without an observer. I think which interpretation corresponds to reality will remain unknown (unless someone comes up with an experiment to make a decision which I find hard to imagine) and be a question of "taste". Einstein was an advocate for a theory that underlies the apparent probabilistic behavior of matter ("Gott würfelt nicht", that is, "God doesn't play dice"), as a theory of hidden variables does (somewhat like the molecules surrounding a Brownian particle make the particle move in an apparent random way). But many others (like Bohr in the "famous" Bohr-Einstein debate) take an opposite stand.






                        share|cite|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$
















                          7












                          7








                          7





                          $begingroup$

                          If only an act of observation by a conscious (whatever it means) creature could cause a wavefunction to collapse, then it would be impossible in the first place for conscious creatures to develop in the course of history because the entire Universe would be in a continuously developing superposition of states without any collapse taking place (collapse is a necessary condition for conscious creatures to develop). Which means that conscious creatures making an observation aren't the cause for the collapse (and nor can conscious creatures now cause the collapse at the beginning of the Universe retroactively because conscious creatures couldn't have developed if the collapse is caused by them). So when inflation took place, no conscious creatures were needed to make a wavefunction collapse, and as you stated in your question, obviously there were no conscious creatures (if the collapse is caused by "a thermodynamically irreversible interaction with a classical environment" then by the same token, neither a classical environment will be able to develop).



                          This means, for example, that the pattern of lines (resulting from the collapse of a whole lot of wavefunctions corresponding to photons) appearing on the screen in the double slit experiment will develop independently of some conscious creature observing the setup.



                          This doesn't necessarily mean though that an observer(creature)-independent interpretation is one that postulates a pilot wave (or hidden variables). The "inherently probabilistic" interpretation will do as well. Both can make a wavefunction collapse without an observer. I think which interpretation corresponds to reality will remain unknown (unless someone comes up with an experiment to make a decision which I find hard to imagine) and be a question of "taste". Einstein was an advocate for a theory that underlies the apparent probabilistic behavior of matter ("Gott würfelt nicht", that is, "God doesn't play dice"), as a theory of hidden variables does (somewhat like the molecules surrounding a Brownian particle make the particle move in an apparent random way). But many others (like Bohr in the "famous" Bohr-Einstein debate) take an opposite stand.






                          share|cite|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$



                          If only an act of observation by a conscious (whatever it means) creature could cause a wavefunction to collapse, then it would be impossible in the first place for conscious creatures to develop in the course of history because the entire Universe would be in a continuously developing superposition of states without any collapse taking place (collapse is a necessary condition for conscious creatures to develop). Which means that conscious creatures making an observation aren't the cause for the collapse (and nor can conscious creatures now cause the collapse at the beginning of the Universe retroactively because conscious creatures couldn't have developed if the collapse is caused by them). So when inflation took place, no conscious creatures were needed to make a wavefunction collapse, and as you stated in your question, obviously there were no conscious creatures (if the collapse is caused by "a thermodynamically irreversible interaction with a classical environment" then by the same token, neither a classical environment will be able to develop).



                          This means, for example, that the pattern of lines (resulting from the collapse of a whole lot of wavefunctions corresponding to photons) appearing on the screen in the double slit experiment will develop independently of some conscious creature observing the setup.



                          This doesn't necessarily mean though that an observer(creature)-independent interpretation is one that postulates a pilot wave (or hidden variables). The "inherently probabilistic" interpretation will do as well. Both can make a wavefunction collapse without an observer. I think which interpretation corresponds to reality will remain unknown (unless someone comes up with an experiment to make a decision which I find hard to imagine) and be a question of "taste". Einstein was an advocate for a theory that underlies the apparent probabilistic behavior of matter ("Gott würfelt nicht", that is, "God doesn't play dice"), as a theory of hidden variables does (somewhat like the molecules surrounding a Brownian particle make the particle move in an apparent random way). But many others (like Bohr in the "famous" Bohr-Einstein debate) take an opposite stand.







                          share|cite|improve this answer














                          share|cite|improve this answer



                          share|cite|improve this answer








                          edited Jan 13 at 23:14

























                          answered Jan 11 at 9:42









                          descheleschilderdescheleschilder

                          3,97221039




                          3,97221039























                              6












                              $begingroup$

                              For an interpretation of quantum mechanics that requires "conscious observers", you can assign our present-day astronomers that role. Certainly their observations are not done at the time of the early universe itself. That's just fine. No problem if you observe 15 billion years after the fact.



                              The problem only exists if you insist that observations must be done simultaneous with the observed phenomenon. But simultaneity has no place in physics, such a requirement would be at variance with basic physics (relativity). Quantum mechanics does not use simultaneity, and does not prescribe when observations must be made.






                              share|cite|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$









                              • 1




                                $begingroup$
                                This is I think the correct answer ! Whether observer dependant or not, these interpretations can all account for the observed facts as long as they don't rely on some "time of observation" or "time of collapse". It is the case of both the Copenhagen and the Bohmian interpretation, so same results.
                                $endgroup$
                                – Undead
                                Jan 14 at 5:18
















                              6












                              $begingroup$

                              For an interpretation of quantum mechanics that requires "conscious observers", you can assign our present-day astronomers that role. Certainly their observations are not done at the time of the early universe itself. That's just fine. No problem if you observe 15 billion years after the fact.



                              The problem only exists if you insist that observations must be done simultaneous with the observed phenomenon. But simultaneity has no place in physics, such a requirement would be at variance with basic physics (relativity). Quantum mechanics does not use simultaneity, and does not prescribe when observations must be made.






                              share|cite|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$









                              • 1




                                $begingroup$
                                This is I think the correct answer ! Whether observer dependant or not, these interpretations can all account for the observed facts as long as they don't rely on some "time of observation" or "time of collapse". It is the case of both the Copenhagen and the Bohmian interpretation, so same results.
                                $endgroup$
                                – Undead
                                Jan 14 at 5:18














                              6












                              6








                              6





                              $begingroup$

                              For an interpretation of quantum mechanics that requires "conscious observers", you can assign our present-day astronomers that role. Certainly their observations are not done at the time of the early universe itself. That's just fine. No problem if you observe 15 billion years after the fact.



                              The problem only exists if you insist that observations must be done simultaneous with the observed phenomenon. But simultaneity has no place in physics, such a requirement would be at variance with basic physics (relativity). Quantum mechanics does not use simultaneity, and does not prescribe when observations must be made.






                              share|cite|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$



                              For an interpretation of quantum mechanics that requires "conscious observers", you can assign our present-day astronomers that role. Certainly their observations are not done at the time of the early universe itself. That's just fine. No problem if you observe 15 billion years after the fact.



                              The problem only exists if you insist that observations must be done simultaneous with the observed phenomenon. But simultaneity has no place in physics, such a requirement would be at variance with basic physics (relativity). Quantum mechanics does not use simultaneity, and does not prescribe when observations must be made.







                              share|cite|improve this answer












                              share|cite|improve this answer



                              share|cite|improve this answer










                              answered Jan 11 at 15:12









                              MennoMenno

                              1512




                              1512








                              • 1




                                $begingroup$
                                This is I think the correct answer ! Whether observer dependant or not, these interpretations can all account for the observed facts as long as they don't rely on some "time of observation" or "time of collapse". It is the case of both the Copenhagen and the Bohmian interpretation, so same results.
                                $endgroup$
                                – Undead
                                Jan 14 at 5:18














                              • 1




                                $begingroup$
                                This is I think the correct answer ! Whether observer dependant or not, these interpretations can all account for the observed facts as long as they don't rely on some "time of observation" or "time of collapse". It is the case of both the Copenhagen and the Bohmian interpretation, so same results.
                                $endgroup$
                                – Undead
                                Jan 14 at 5:18








                              1




                              1




                              $begingroup$
                              This is I think the correct answer ! Whether observer dependant or not, these interpretations can all account for the observed facts as long as they don't rely on some "time of observation" or "time of collapse". It is the case of both the Copenhagen and the Bohmian interpretation, so same results.
                              $endgroup$
                              – Undead
                              Jan 14 at 5:18




                              $begingroup$
                              This is I think the correct answer ! Whether observer dependant or not, these interpretations can all account for the observed facts as long as they don't rely on some "time of observation" or "time of collapse". It is the case of both the Copenhagen and the Bohmian interpretation, so same results.
                              $endgroup$
                              – Undead
                              Jan 14 at 5:18











                              4












                              $begingroup$

                              Observation does not mean "by a human". Observation is any action on the system by outside of the system. Photons interacting, the confines of the system being changed, etc.



                              Your comment above about superposition "automatically collapsing in the early universe" is wrong. A hydrogen atom with superposition of it's energy level will collapse when the value of it's energy level is needed (e.g in a physical collision) which counts as an observation. The main takeaway is that when we say observation we mean interaction with a clearly defined outcome.






                              share|cite|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$


















                                4












                                $begingroup$

                                Observation does not mean "by a human". Observation is any action on the system by outside of the system. Photons interacting, the confines of the system being changed, etc.



                                Your comment above about superposition "automatically collapsing in the early universe" is wrong. A hydrogen atom with superposition of it's energy level will collapse when the value of it's energy level is needed (e.g in a physical collision) which counts as an observation. The main takeaway is that when we say observation we mean interaction with a clearly defined outcome.






                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$
















                                  4












                                  4








                                  4





                                  $begingroup$

                                  Observation does not mean "by a human". Observation is any action on the system by outside of the system. Photons interacting, the confines of the system being changed, etc.



                                  Your comment above about superposition "automatically collapsing in the early universe" is wrong. A hydrogen atom with superposition of it's energy level will collapse when the value of it's energy level is needed (e.g in a physical collision) which counts as an observation. The main takeaway is that when we say observation we mean interaction with a clearly defined outcome.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer









                                  $endgroup$



                                  Observation does not mean "by a human". Observation is any action on the system by outside of the system. Photons interacting, the confines of the system being changed, etc.



                                  Your comment above about superposition "automatically collapsing in the early universe" is wrong. A hydrogen atom with superposition of it's energy level will collapse when the value of it's energy level is needed (e.g in a physical collision) which counts as an observation. The main takeaway is that when we say observation we mean interaction with a clearly defined outcome.







                                  share|cite|improve this answer












                                  share|cite|improve this answer



                                  share|cite|improve this answer










                                  answered Jan 11 at 10:51









                                  ProdigleProdigle

                                  1492




                                  1492























                                      4












                                      $begingroup$

                                      The problem with this question is that it assumes there is some metaphysical interpretation that we can be sure is true. While we have excellent equations that work incredibly precisely, we are not sure which qualitative interpretation of these equations is real.



                                      There are now countless interpretations, each with their own sub-interpretations. Alexander R. Pruss splits these interpretations into two main groups - No collapse theories with a deterministically evolving wavefunctions and wavefunction collapse theories.



                                      Out of the collapse theories, we have the Copenhagen Interpretation, where the wavefunction collapse is triggered by a measurement. Definitions of what constitutes a measurement can differ a lot depending on the physicist/philosopher. The Ghirardi-Rimini-Weber theory is another collapse theory where the collapse is triggered at some particular rate over time. The trouble with this theory is that no spontaneous collapse has been observed in any way, and an additional parameter - that of the rate of collapse - has to be introduced and explained in some way.



                                      There are also many no collapse theories such as Bohmian Mechanics, the Many Worlds Interpretation, Many Minds Interpretation and Traveling Forms interpretation. In these, the universe continues to develop deterministically, but each have their own reasons as to why we can only get stochastic results from the deterministic systems upon measurement. Each of these interpretations also have their own problems. Bohmian Mechanics has the problem of nonlocality. The Many Worlds Interpretation is unclear as to how splits occur and is a bit bizarre to try to reconcile with, for example, the conservation of energy. The Many Minds interpretation leads to bizarre absurdities such as Boltzmann Minds and universes where there is just one mind surrounded by zombies. I don't think the Traveling Forms is well enough known to have its own critique, but I expect someone will come up with one at some point.



                                      I found an excellent study of this topic in this book: http://www.michalpaszkiewicz.co.uk/blog/reviewnapocs/index.html






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$









                                      • 1




                                        $begingroup$
                                        I don't find it problematic to ask how a popular interpretation is compatible with a specific phenomenon. Your overview of other interpretations is actually nice, but that's not asked here?
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – M. Stern
                                        Jan 11 at 22:19










                                      • $begingroup$
                                        Thanks for the comment - the OP mentioned 2 different interpretations (Copenhagen and Bohmian) and also didn't specify that there was a particular desire for an answer for the Copenhagen interpretation - so I wasn't sure of how many interpretations the OP was aware of and thought it needed a more generalised answer.
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – Michal Paszkiewicz
                                        Jan 12 at 10:15
















                                      4












                                      $begingroup$

                                      The problem with this question is that it assumes there is some metaphysical interpretation that we can be sure is true. While we have excellent equations that work incredibly precisely, we are not sure which qualitative interpretation of these equations is real.



                                      There are now countless interpretations, each with their own sub-interpretations. Alexander R. Pruss splits these interpretations into two main groups - No collapse theories with a deterministically evolving wavefunctions and wavefunction collapse theories.



                                      Out of the collapse theories, we have the Copenhagen Interpretation, where the wavefunction collapse is triggered by a measurement. Definitions of what constitutes a measurement can differ a lot depending on the physicist/philosopher. The Ghirardi-Rimini-Weber theory is another collapse theory where the collapse is triggered at some particular rate over time. The trouble with this theory is that no spontaneous collapse has been observed in any way, and an additional parameter - that of the rate of collapse - has to be introduced and explained in some way.



                                      There are also many no collapse theories such as Bohmian Mechanics, the Many Worlds Interpretation, Many Minds Interpretation and Traveling Forms interpretation. In these, the universe continues to develop deterministically, but each have their own reasons as to why we can only get stochastic results from the deterministic systems upon measurement. Each of these interpretations also have their own problems. Bohmian Mechanics has the problem of nonlocality. The Many Worlds Interpretation is unclear as to how splits occur and is a bit bizarre to try to reconcile with, for example, the conservation of energy. The Many Minds interpretation leads to bizarre absurdities such as Boltzmann Minds and universes where there is just one mind surrounded by zombies. I don't think the Traveling Forms is well enough known to have its own critique, but I expect someone will come up with one at some point.



                                      I found an excellent study of this topic in this book: http://www.michalpaszkiewicz.co.uk/blog/reviewnapocs/index.html






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$









                                      • 1




                                        $begingroup$
                                        I don't find it problematic to ask how a popular interpretation is compatible with a specific phenomenon. Your overview of other interpretations is actually nice, but that's not asked here?
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – M. Stern
                                        Jan 11 at 22:19










                                      • $begingroup$
                                        Thanks for the comment - the OP mentioned 2 different interpretations (Copenhagen and Bohmian) and also didn't specify that there was a particular desire for an answer for the Copenhagen interpretation - so I wasn't sure of how many interpretations the OP was aware of and thought it needed a more generalised answer.
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – Michal Paszkiewicz
                                        Jan 12 at 10:15














                                      4












                                      4








                                      4





                                      $begingroup$

                                      The problem with this question is that it assumes there is some metaphysical interpretation that we can be sure is true. While we have excellent equations that work incredibly precisely, we are not sure which qualitative interpretation of these equations is real.



                                      There are now countless interpretations, each with their own sub-interpretations. Alexander R. Pruss splits these interpretations into two main groups - No collapse theories with a deterministically evolving wavefunctions and wavefunction collapse theories.



                                      Out of the collapse theories, we have the Copenhagen Interpretation, where the wavefunction collapse is triggered by a measurement. Definitions of what constitutes a measurement can differ a lot depending on the physicist/philosopher. The Ghirardi-Rimini-Weber theory is another collapse theory where the collapse is triggered at some particular rate over time. The trouble with this theory is that no spontaneous collapse has been observed in any way, and an additional parameter - that of the rate of collapse - has to be introduced and explained in some way.



                                      There are also many no collapse theories such as Bohmian Mechanics, the Many Worlds Interpretation, Many Minds Interpretation and Traveling Forms interpretation. In these, the universe continues to develop deterministically, but each have their own reasons as to why we can only get stochastic results from the deterministic systems upon measurement. Each of these interpretations also have their own problems. Bohmian Mechanics has the problem of nonlocality. The Many Worlds Interpretation is unclear as to how splits occur and is a bit bizarre to try to reconcile with, for example, the conservation of energy. The Many Minds interpretation leads to bizarre absurdities such as Boltzmann Minds and universes where there is just one mind surrounded by zombies. I don't think the Traveling Forms is well enough known to have its own critique, but I expect someone will come up with one at some point.



                                      I found an excellent study of this topic in this book: http://www.michalpaszkiewicz.co.uk/blog/reviewnapocs/index.html






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$



                                      The problem with this question is that it assumes there is some metaphysical interpretation that we can be sure is true. While we have excellent equations that work incredibly precisely, we are not sure which qualitative interpretation of these equations is real.



                                      There are now countless interpretations, each with their own sub-interpretations. Alexander R. Pruss splits these interpretations into two main groups - No collapse theories with a deterministically evolving wavefunctions and wavefunction collapse theories.



                                      Out of the collapse theories, we have the Copenhagen Interpretation, where the wavefunction collapse is triggered by a measurement. Definitions of what constitutes a measurement can differ a lot depending on the physicist/philosopher. The Ghirardi-Rimini-Weber theory is another collapse theory where the collapse is triggered at some particular rate over time. The trouble with this theory is that no spontaneous collapse has been observed in any way, and an additional parameter - that of the rate of collapse - has to be introduced and explained in some way.



                                      There are also many no collapse theories such as Bohmian Mechanics, the Many Worlds Interpretation, Many Minds Interpretation and Traveling Forms interpretation. In these, the universe continues to develop deterministically, but each have their own reasons as to why we can only get stochastic results from the deterministic systems upon measurement. Each of these interpretations also have their own problems. Bohmian Mechanics has the problem of nonlocality. The Many Worlds Interpretation is unclear as to how splits occur and is a bit bizarre to try to reconcile with, for example, the conservation of energy. The Many Minds interpretation leads to bizarre absurdities such as Boltzmann Minds and universes where there is just one mind surrounded by zombies. I don't think the Traveling Forms is well enough known to have its own critique, but I expect someone will come up with one at some point.



                                      I found an excellent study of this topic in this book: http://www.michalpaszkiewicz.co.uk/blog/reviewnapocs/index.html







                                      share|cite|improve this answer












                                      share|cite|improve this answer



                                      share|cite|improve this answer










                                      answered Jan 11 at 16:18









                                      Michal PaszkiewiczMichal Paszkiewicz

                                      23828




                                      23828








                                      • 1




                                        $begingroup$
                                        I don't find it problematic to ask how a popular interpretation is compatible with a specific phenomenon. Your overview of other interpretations is actually nice, but that's not asked here?
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – M. Stern
                                        Jan 11 at 22:19










                                      • $begingroup$
                                        Thanks for the comment - the OP mentioned 2 different interpretations (Copenhagen and Bohmian) and also didn't specify that there was a particular desire for an answer for the Copenhagen interpretation - so I wasn't sure of how many interpretations the OP was aware of and thought it needed a more generalised answer.
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – Michal Paszkiewicz
                                        Jan 12 at 10:15














                                      • 1




                                        $begingroup$
                                        I don't find it problematic to ask how a popular interpretation is compatible with a specific phenomenon. Your overview of other interpretations is actually nice, but that's not asked here?
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – M. Stern
                                        Jan 11 at 22:19










                                      • $begingroup$
                                        Thanks for the comment - the OP mentioned 2 different interpretations (Copenhagen and Bohmian) and also didn't specify that there was a particular desire for an answer for the Copenhagen interpretation - so I wasn't sure of how many interpretations the OP was aware of and thought it needed a more generalised answer.
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – Michal Paszkiewicz
                                        Jan 12 at 10:15








                                      1




                                      1




                                      $begingroup$
                                      I don't find it problematic to ask how a popular interpretation is compatible with a specific phenomenon. Your overview of other interpretations is actually nice, but that's not asked here?
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – M. Stern
                                      Jan 11 at 22:19




                                      $begingroup$
                                      I don't find it problematic to ask how a popular interpretation is compatible with a specific phenomenon. Your overview of other interpretations is actually nice, but that's not asked here?
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – M. Stern
                                      Jan 11 at 22:19












                                      $begingroup$
                                      Thanks for the comment - the OP mentioned 2 different interpretations (Copenhagen and Bohmian) and also didn't specify that there was a particular desire for an answer for the Copenhagen interpretation - so I wasn't sure of how many interpretations the OP was aware of and thought it needed a more generalised answer.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Michal Paszkiewicz
                                      Jan 12 at 10:15




                                      $begingroup$
                                      Thanks for the comment - the OP mentioned 2 different interpretations (Copenhagen and Bohmian) and also didn't specify that there was a particular desire for an answer for the Copenhagen interpretation - so I wasn't sure of how many interpretations the OP was aware of and thought it needed a more generalised answer.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Michal Paszkiewicz
                                      Jan 12 at 10:15











                                      2












                                      $begingroup$

                                      As others have mentioned, your definition of observer seems to have mislead you.



                                      Take the double slit experiment for instance. In this case, the observer which forces the wave function to collapse is the screen, not the person looking at the screen. The results would be the same without a person looking at the screen.






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$













                                      • $begingroup$
                                        So how large does this screen need to be in order to count as an "observer"? What if you isolate the screen very well, would you still call it an observation? This approach has some problems if you think about it. There are similar problems with highly upvoted answers, to be fair...
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – M. Stern
                                        Jan 15 at 17:41
















                                      2












                                      $begingroup$

                                      As others have mentioned, your definition of observer seems to have mislead you.



                                      Take the double slit experiment for instance. In this case, the observer which forces the wave function to collapse is the screen, not the person looking at the screen. The results would be the same without a person looking at the screen.






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$













                                      • $begingroup$
                                        So how large does this screen need to be in order to count as an "observer"? What if you isolate the screen very well, would you still call it an observation? This approach has some problems if you think about it. There are similar problems with highly upvoted answers, to be fair...
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – M. Stern
                                        Jan 15 at 17:41














                                      2












                                      2








                                      2





                                      $begingroup$

                                      As others have mentioned, your definition of observer seems to have mislead you.



                                      Take the double slit experiment for instance. In this case, the observer which forces the wave function to collapse is the screen, not the person looking at the screen. The results would be the same without a person looking at the screen.






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$



                                      As others have mentioned, your definition of observer seems to have mislead you.



                                      Take the double slit experiment for instance. In this case, the observer which forces the wave function to collapse is the screen, not the person looking at the screen. The results would be the same without a person looking at the screen.







                                      share|cite|improve this answer












                                      share|cite|improve this answer



                                      share|cite|improve this answer










                                      answered Jan 13 at 9:42









                                      JawadJawad

                                      1211




                                      1211












                                      • $begingroup$
                                        So how large does this screen need to be in order to count as an "observer"? What if you isolate the screen very well, would you still call it an observation? This approach has some problems if you think about it. There are similar problems with highly upvoted answers, to be fair...
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – M. Stern
                                        Jan 15 at 17:41


















                                      • $begingroup$
                                        So how large does this screen need to be in order to count as an "observer"? What if you isolate the screen very well, would you still call it an observation? This approach has some problems if you think about it. There are similar problems with highly upvoted answers, to be fair...
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – M. Stern
                                        Jan 15 at 17:41
















                                      $begingroup$
                                      So how large does this screen need to be in order to count as an "observer"? What if you isolate the screen very well, would you still call it an observation? This approach has some problems if you think about it. There are similar problems with highly upvoted answers, to be fair...
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – M. Stern
                                      Jan 15 at 17:41




                                      $begingroup$
                                      So how large does this screen need to be in order to count as an "observer"? What if you isolate the screen very well, would you still call it an observation? This approach has some problems if you think about it. There are similar problems with highly upvoted answers, to be fair...
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – M. Stern
                                      Jan 15 at 17:41











                                      0












                                      $begingroup$

                                      It's an interesting question - with no answer

                                      Your asking about quantum effects in the pre-inflation universe, which could have been as small as $10^{-26}m$. We are talking about a very massive and extremely small system, which would be described by a theory that unifies general relativity and quantum mechanics. As of now, we just don't have this theory, so anything might have happened. At least quantum theory probably does not apply.






                                      share|cite|improve this answer











                                      $endgroup$


















                                        0












                                        $begingroup$

                                        It's an interesting question - with no answer

                                        Your asking about quantum effects in the pre-inflation universe, which could have been as small as $10^{-26}m$. We are talking about a very massive and extremely small system, which would be described by a theory that unifies general relativity and quantum mechanics. As of now, we just don't have this theory, so anything might have happened. At least quantum theory probably does not apply.






                                        share|cite|improve this answer











                                        $endgroup$
















                                          0












                                          0








                                          0





                                          $begingroup$

                                          It's an interesting question - with no answer

                                          Your asking about quantum effects in the pre-inflation universe, which could have been as small as $10^{-26}m$. We are talking about a very massive and extremely small system, which would be described by a theory that unifies general relativity and quantum mechanics. As of now, we just don't have this theory, so anything might have happened. At least quantum theory probably does not apply.






                                          share|cite|improve this answer











                                          $endgroup$



                                          It's an interesting question - with no answer

                                          Your asking about quantum effects in the pre-inflation universe, which could have been as small as $10^{-26}m$. We are talking about a very massive and extremely small system, which would be described by a theory that unifies general relativity and quantum mechanics. As of now, we just don't have this theory, so anything might have happened. At least quantum theory probably does not apply.







                                          share|cite|improve this answer














                                          share|cite|improve this answer



                                          share|cite|improve this answer








                                          edited 2 days ago

























                                          answered Jan 11 at 11:00









                                          M. SternM. Stern

                                          199110




                                          199110























                                              0












                                              $begingroup$

                                              All of quantum mechanics theory suffers from being entirely devoid of real facts, being just a bunch of theories: the so-called interpretations.



                                              Schroedinger developed a perfectly valid and hugely successful equation, which accurately handles all the practical aspects of quantum mechanics. Then a whole lot of other people tried to theorise about why the equation was so successful.



                                              All the theories violently disagree with each other.



                                              Einstein never agreed with any of these theories, and was particularly scathing about the so-called Copenhagen interpretation, which he viewed as a load of rubbish. And he was a lot smarter than everyone else working in this field - then and now.



                                              So good luck with trying to second-guess Einstein.



                                              Schroedinger realised that at the heart of quantum mechanics there is a random factor, which can't be precisely quantified, but which must be handled statistically: that is, it can be assigned a probability. The implication of this is that what is being measured is not a single event, but many events: so many, that even given a certain amount of freedom (i.e. randomness) within the system being measured, when viewing a sufficiently large sample - presumably millions of events - it is possible to measure the average response of the system with an impressive degree of certainty.



                                              At the heart of statistics lies a grain of truth: that what to us, here at the macroscopic level, appears to be a single event (we call it, out of ignorance, a particle), is really many events. Statistics give us a picture of a quark, or an electron, or a neutrino: we assume, on no evidence, that it is a single spacetime event; but Schroedinger assures us that it is not, and that what we are seeing is merely the tip of the iceberg: an iceberg built out of the statistics of thousands, perhaps millions, of underlying events.



                                              Schroedinger's work is the only solid piece in the quagmire termed quantum mechanics. What one ought to do in this field is pay more attention to him, because the rest is all theory, and largely based purely on speculation.



                                              If a particle is not a statistical illusion, why does its behaviour conform so closely with Schroedinger's equation, an equation which requires one to accept - in its math - that the behaviour it is modelling is based on a series of statistical probabilities?



                                              Certainly one can understand why a particle might not be capable of being assigned a precise spacetime location, if what one is "observing" is not a single spacetime event but is, rather, the statistical outcome of a million underlying events.



                                              Even if (which seems unlikely) there are only a dozen underlying events, it is still a case of the "particle" having a "position" which is derived from averaging the positions of those 12 actual events. How much less precise does its position become if the "position" is averaged from the locations of a million actual events? Which of those million is its "real" location? Are they not all equally valid?



                                              When we measure a property, we are measuring the average of a large number of events, not, as we have previously supposed, a single event. Classical physics believed that a particle is a single spacetime event, whereas quantum mechanics is trying to tell us that a particle is the average value of many separate events.



                                              Quantum interpretations tell us nothing: we simply do not have the technology capable of magnifying the events at the sub-atomic level to see what is really occurring there. But Schroedinger has already given us the clearest road-map: we must expect to see a large number of individual events, which are to some degree chaotic, but which are predictable when treated in groups, using statistics, and which when so treated will obey the probabilities he sets down.



                                              His math gives the clearest possible explanation of what is occurring, and all the theorists do is ignore him. They persist in claiming that a particle is a single event, and thereby they mislead themselves into ignoring the statistical nature of Schroedinger's work.



                                              Accordingly, the answer to the o/p's question is that none of the so-called interpretations is valid, and that a true understanding of quantum events must wait on the development of techniques for magnifying the quantum level, such that we can study what is actually occurring there instead of theorising about what might be.






                                              share|cite|improve this answer









                                              $endgroup$


















                                                0












                                                $begingroup$

                                                All of quantum mechanics theory suffers from being entirely devoid of real facts, being just a bunch of theories: the so-called interpretations.



                                                Schroedinger developed a perfectly valid and hugely successful equation, which accurately handles all the practical aspects of quantum mechanics. Then a whole lot of other people tried to theorise about why the equation was so successful.



                                                All the theories violently disagree with each other.



                                                Einstein never agreed with any of these theories, and was particularly scathing about the so-called Copenhagen interpretation, which he viewed as a load of rubbish. And he was a lot smarter than everyone else working in this field - then and now.



                                                So good luck with trying to second-guess Einstein.



                                                Schroedinger realised that at the heart of quantum mechanics there is a random factor, which can't be precisely quantified, but which must be handled statistically: that is, it can be assigned a probability. The implication of this is that what is being measured is not a single event, but many events: so many, that even given a certain amount of freedom (i.e. randomness) within the system being measured, when viewing a sufficiently large sample - presumably millions of events - it is possible to measure the average response of the system with an impressive degree of certainty.



                                                At the heart of statistics lies a grain of truth: that what to us, here at the macroscopic level, appears to be a single event (we call it, out of ignorance, a particle), is really many events. Statistics give us a picture of a quark, or an electron, or a neutrino: we assume, on no evidence, that it is a single spacetime event; but Schroedinger assures us that it is not, and that what we are seeing is merely the tip of the iceberg: an iceberg built out of the statistics of thousands, perhaps millions, of underlying events.



                                                Schroedinger's work is the only solid piece in the quagmire termed quantum mechanics. What one ought to do in this field is pay more attention to him, because the rest is all theory, and largely based purely on speculation.



                                                If a particle is not a statistical illusion, why does its behaviour conform so closely with Schroedinger's equation, an equation which requires one to accept - in its math - that the behaviour it is modelling is based on a series of statistical probabilities?



                                                Certainly one can understand why a particle might not be capable of being assigned a precise spacetime location, if what one is "observing" is not a single spacetime event but is, rather, the statistical outcome of a million underlying events.



                                                Even if (which seems unlikely) there are only a dozen underlying events, it is still a case of the "particle" having a "position" which is derived from averaging the positions of those 12 actual events. How much less precise does its position become if the "position" is averaged from the locations of a million actual events? Which of those million is its "real" location? Are they not all equally valid?



                                                When we measure a property, we are measuring the average of a large number of events, not, as we have previously supposed, a single event. Classical physics believed that a particle is a single spacetime event, whereas quantum mechanics is trying to tell us that a particle is the average value of many separate events.



                                                Quantum interpretations tell us nothing: we simply do not have the technology capable of magnifying the events at the sub-atomic level to see what is really occurring there. But Schroedinger has already given us the clearest road-map: we must expect to see a large number of individual events, which are to some degree chaotic, but which are predictable when treated in groups, using statistics, and which when so treated will obey the probabilities he sets down.



                                                His math gives the clearest possible explanation of what is occurring, and all the theorists do is ignore him. They persist in claiming that a particle is a single event, and thereby they mislead themselves into ignoring the statistical nature of Schroedinger's work.



                                                Accordingly, the answer to the o/p's question is that none of the so-called interpretations is valid, and that a true understanding of quantum events must wait on the development of techniques for magnifying the quantum level, such that we can study what is actually occurring there instead of theorising about what might be.






                                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                                $endgroup$
















                                                  0












                                                  0








                                                  0





                                                  $begingroup$

                                                  All of quantum mechanics theory suffers from being entirely devoid of real facts, being just a bunch of theories: the so-called interpretations.



                                                  Schroedinger developed a perfectly valid and hugely successful equation, which accurately handles all the practical aspects of quantum mechanics. Then a whole lot of other people tried to theorise about why the equation was so successful.



                                                  All the theories violently disagree with each other.



                                                  Einstein never agreed with any of these theories, and was particularly scathing about the so-called Copenhagen interpretation, which he viewed as a load of rubbish. And he was a lot smarter than everyone else working in this field - then and now.



                                                  So good luck with trying to second-guess Einstein.



                                                  Schroedinger realised that at the heart of quantum mechanics there is a random factor, which can't be precisely quantified, but which must be handled statistically: that is, it can be assigned a probability. The implication of this is that what is being measured is not a single event, but many events: so many, that even given a certain amount of freedom (i.e. randomness) within the system being measured, when viewing a sufficiently large sample - presumably millions of events - it is possible to measure the average response of the system with an impressive degree of certainty.



                                                  At the heart of statistics lies a grain of truth: that what to us, here at the macroscopic level, appears to be a single event (we call it, out of ignorance, a particle), is really many events. Statistics give us a picture of a quark, or an electron, or a neutrino: we assume, on no evidence, that it is a single spacetime event; but Schroedinger assures us that it is not, and that what we are seeing is merely the tip of the iceberg: an iceberg built out of the statistics of thousands, perhaps millions, of underlying events.



                                                  Schroedinger's work is the only solid piece in the quagmire termed quantum mechanics. What one ought to do in this field is pay more attention to him, because the rest is all theory, and largely based purely on speculation.



                                                  If a particle is not a statistical illusion, why does its behaviour conform so closely with Schroedinger's equation, an equation which requires one to accept - in its math - that the behaviour it is modelling is based on a series of statistical probabilities?



                                                  Certainly one can understand why a particle might not be capable of being assigned a precise spacetime location, if what one is "observing" is not a single spacetime event but is, rather, the statistical outcome of a million underlying events.



                                                  Even if (which seems unlikely) there are only a dozen underlying events, it is still a case of the "particle" having a "position" which is derived from averaging the positions of those 12 actual events. How much less precise does its position become if the "position" is averaged from the locations of a million actual events? Which of those million is its "real" location? Are they not all equally valid?



                                                  When we measure a property, we are measuring the average of a large number of events, not, as we have previously supposed, a single event. Classical physics believed that a particle is a single spacetime event, whereas quantum mechanics is trying to tell us that a particle is the average value of many separate events.



                                                  Quantum interpretations tell us nothing: we simply do not have the technology capable of magnifying the events at the sub-atomic level to see what is really occurring there. But Schroedinger has already given us the clearest road-map: we must expect to see a large number of individual events, which are to some degree chaotic, but which are predictable when treated in groups, using statistics, and which when so treated will obey the probabilities he sets down.



                                                  His math gives the clearest possible explanation of what is occurring, and all the theorists do is ignore him. They persist in claiming that a particle is a single event, and thereby they mislead themselves into ignoring the statistical nature of Schroedinger's work.



                                                  Accordingly, the answer to the o/p's question is that none of the so-called interpretations is valid, and that a true understanding of quantum events must wait on the development of techniques for magnifying the quantum level, such that we can study what is actually occurring there instead of theorising about what might be.






                                                  share|cite|improve this answer









                                                  $endgroup$



                                                  All of quantum mechanics theory suffers from being entirely devoid of real facts, being just a bunch of theories: the so-called interpretations.



                                                  Schroedinger developed a perfectly valid and hugely successful equation, which accurately handles all the practical aspects of quantum mechanics. Then a whole lot of other people tried to theorise about why the equation was so successful.



                                                  All the theories violently disagree with each other.



                                                  Einstein never agreed with any of these theories, and was particularly scathing about the so-called Copenhagen interpretation, which he viewed as a load of rubbish. And he was a lot smarter than everyone else working in this field - then and now.



                                                  So good luck with trying to second-guess Einstein.



                                                  Schroedinger realised that at the heart of quantum mechanics there is a random factor, which can't be precisely quantified, but which must be handled statistically: that is, it can be assigned a probability. The implication of this is that what is being measured is not a single event, but many events: so many, that even given a certain amount of freedom (i.e. randomness) within the system being measured, when viewing a sufficiently large sample - presumably millions of events - it is possible to measure the average response of the system with an impressive degree of certainty.



                                                  At the heart of statistics lies a grain of truth: that what to us, here at the macroscopic level, appears to be a single event (we call it, out of ignorance, a particle), is really many events. Statistics give us a picture of a quark, or an electron, or a neutrino: we assume, on no evidence, that it is a single spacetime event; but Schroedinger assures us that it is not, and that what we are seeing is merely the tip of the iceberg: an iceberg built out of the statistics of thousands, perhaps millions, of underlying events.



                                                  Schroedinger's work is the only solid piece in the quagmire termed quantum mechanics. What one ought to do in this field is pay more attention to him, because the rest is all theory, and largely based purely on speculation.



                                                  If a particle is not a statistical illusion, why does its behaviour conform so closely with Schroedinger's equation, an equation which requires one to accept - in its math - that the behaviour it is modelling is based on a series of statistical probabilities?



                                                  Certainly one can understand why a particle might not be capable of being assigned a precise spacetime location, if what one is "observing" is not a single spacetime event but is, rather, the statistical outcome of a million underlying events.



                                                  Even if (which seems unlikely) there are only a dozen underlying events, it is still a case of the "particle" having a "position" which is derived from averaging the positions of those 12 actual events. How much less precise does its position become if the "position" is averaged from the locations of a million actual events? Which of those million is its "real" location? Are they not all equally valid?



                                                  When we measure a property, we are measuring the average of a large number of events, not, as we have previously supposed, a single event. Classical physics believed that a particle is a single spacetime event, whereas quantum mechanics is trying to tell us that a particle is the average value of many separate events.



                                                  Quantum interpretations tell us nothing: we simply do not have the technology capable of magnifying the events at the sub-atomic level to see what is really occurring there. But Schroedinger has already given us the clearest road-map: we must expect to see a large number of individual events, which are to some degree chaotic, but which are predictable when treated in groups, using statistics, and which when so treated will obey the probabilities he sets down.



                                                  His math gives the clearest possible explanation of what is occurring, and all the theorists do is ignore him. They persist in claiming that a particle is a single event, and thereby they mislead themselves into ignoring the statistical nature of Schroedinger's work.



                                                  Accordingly, the answer to the o/p's question is that none of the so-called interpretations is valid, and that a true understanding of quantum events must wait on the development of techniques for magnifying the quantum level, such that we can study what is actually occurring there instead of theorising about what might be.







                                                  share|cite|improve this answer












                                                  share|cite|improve this answer



                                                  share|cite|improve this answer










                                                  answered 49 mins ago









                                                  Ed999Ed999

                                                  1044




                                                  1044























                                                      0












                                                      $begingroup$

                                                      The interpretations of QM, such as the Copenhagen Interpretation are just interpretations. The actual behavior of the universe that QM predicts will occur is defined using just a wave function. However, there's a philosophical issue with this. We as humans don't see wave-function like behavior on a day to day basis. We see what we think of as concrete objects, governed by classical mechanics. The interpretations are ways that such a classical object, were it to exist, could interact with the quantum world in a way which is consistent with QM's predictions.



                                                      No observer nor observation is needed for the world to evolve in the ways QM predicts. However, should any part of the universe begin to act in a way similar to a classical object (which they do), QM should predict behaviors which, in their limiting case, coincide with the interpretations.



                                                      In the particular case of the Cophenhagen Interpretation, it does suggest that if a truly metaphysical being were to observe a quantum system in the way one observes a classical system, it would have to do something akin to waveform collapse. However, a more useful takeaway from it might be that if you have an entity that has properties that lead it to interact rather classically (such as your hand), you should expect the result of that entity interacting should be similar to waveform collapse.



                                                      If you are 100% certain that you are a 100% classical being with 0% quantum behavior, then you will need an interpretation to explain how you interact with the world that is governed by quantum mechanics (read: everything). However, if you are merely 99.9999999% certain that you are a 99.999999% classical being with 0.000001% quantum behavior, then you could view yourself as part of the quantum system, but it may be very convenient to do predictions based on classical physics. Since your interactions typically involve trillions of interactions or more, classical physics does a very good job of making good predictions. Its only when the number of interactions gets small that we find the quirks of this classical physics approach start to show, and we have to think of things in QM terms.






                                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                                      $endgroup$


















                                                        0












                                                        $begingroup$

                                                        The interpretations of QM, such as the Copenhagen Interpretation are just interpretations. The actual behavior of the universe that QM predicts will occur is defined using just a wave function. However, there's a philosophical issue with this. We as humans don't see wave-function like behavior on a day to day basis. We see what we think of as concrete objects, governed by classical mechanics. The interpretations are ways that such a classical object, were it to exist, could interact with the quantum world in a way which is consistent with QM's predictions.



                                                        No observer nor observation is needed for the world to evolve in the ways QM predicts. However, should any part of the universe begin to act in a way similar to a classical object (which they do), QM should predict behaviors which, in their limiting case, coincide with the interpretations.



                                                        In the particular case of the Cophenhagen Interpretation, it does suggest that if a truly metaphysical being were to observe a quantum system in the way one observes a classical system, it would have to do something akin to waveform collapse. However, a more useful takeaway from it might be that if you have an entity that has properties that lead it to interact rather classically (such as your hand), you should expect the result of that entity interacting should be similar to waveform collapse.



                                                        If you are 100% certain that you are a 100% classical being with 0% quantum behavior, then you will need an interpretation to explain how you interact with the world that is governed by quantum mechanics (read: everything). However, if you are merely 99.9999999% certain that you are a 99.999999% classical being with 0.000001% quantum behavior, then you could view yourself as part of the quantum system, but it may be very convenient to do predictions based on classical physics. Since your interactions typically involve trillions of interactions or more, classical physics does a very good job of making good predictions. Its only when the number of interactions gets small that we find the quirks of this classical physics approach start to show, and we have to think of things in QM terms.






                                                        share|cite|improve this answer









                                                        $endgroup$
















                                                          0












                                                          0








                                                          0





                                                          $begingroup$

                                                          The interpretations of QM, such as the Copenhagen Interpretation are just interpretations. The actual behavior of the universe that QM predicts will occur is defined using just a wave function. However, there's a philosophical issue with this. We as humans don't see wave-function like behavior on a day to day basis. We see what we think of as concrete objects, governed by classical mechanics. The interpretations are ways that such a classical object, were it to exist, could interact with the quantum world in a way which is consistent with QM's predictions.



                                                          No observer nor observation is needed for the world to evolve in the ways QM predicts. However, should any part of the universe begin to act in a way similar to a classical object (which they do), QM should predict behaviors which, in their limiting case, coincide with the interpretations.



                                                          In the particular case of the Cophenhagen Interpretation, it does suggest that if a truly metaphysical being were to observe a quantum system in the way one observes a classical system, it would have to do something akin to waveform collapse. However, a more useful takeaway from it might be that if you have an entity that has properties that lead it to interact rather classically (such as your hand), you should expect the result of that entity interacting should be similar to waveform collapse.



                                                          If you are 100% certain that you are a 100% classical being with 0% quantum behavior, then you will need an interpretation to explain how you interact with the world that is governed by quantum mechanics (read: everything). However, if you are merely 99.9999999% certain that you are a 99.999999% classical being with 0.000001% quantum behavior, then you could view yourself as part of the quantum system, but it may be very convenient to do predictions based on classical physics. Since your interactions typically involve trillions of interactions or more, classical physics does a very good job of making good predictions. Its only when the number of interactions gets small that we find the quirks of this classical physics approach start to show, and we have to think of things in QM terms.






                                                          share|cite|improve this answer









                                                          $endgroup$



                                                          The interpretations of QM, such as the Copenhagen Interpretation are just interpretations. The actual behavior of the universe that QM predicts will occur is defined using just a wave function. However, there's a philosophical issue with this. We as humans don't see wave-function like behavior on a day to day basis. We see what we think of as concrete objects, governed by classical mechanics. The interpretations are ways that such a classical object, were it to exist, could interact with the quantum world in a way which is consistent with QM's predictions.



                                                          No observer nor observation is needed for the world to evolve in the ways QM predicts. However, should any part of the universe begin to act in a way similar to a classical object (which they do), QM should predict behaviors which, in their limiting case, coincide with the interpretations.



                                                          In the particular case of the Cophenhagen Interpretation, it does suggest that if a truly metaphysical being were to observe a quantum system in the way one observes a classical system, it would have to do something akin to waveform collapse. However, a more useful takeaway from it might be that if you have an entity that has properties that lead it to interact rather classically (such as your hand), you should expect the result of that entity interacting should be similar to waveform collapse.



                                                          If you are 100% certain that you are a 100% classical being with 0% quantum behavior, then you will need an interpretation to explain how you interact with the world that is governed by quantum mechanics (read: everything). However, if you are merely 99.9999999% certain that you are a 99.999999% classical being with 0.000001% quantum behavior, then you could view yourself as part of the quantum system, but it may be very convenient to do predictions based on classical physics. Since your interactions typically involve trillions of interactions or more, classical physics does a very good job of making good predictions. Its only when the number of interactions gets small that we find the quirks of this classical physics approach start to show, and we have to think of things in QM terms.







                                                          share|cite|improve this answer












                                                          share|cite|improve this answer



                                                          share|cite|improve this answer










                                                          answered 35 mins ago









                                                          Cort AmmonCort Ammon

                                                          22.9k34573




                                                          22.9k34573






























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